The KGB Oracle Forums The KGB Great Hall of History (ARCHIVE) Darkfall Members Forum Pretty surprised KGB is allied with the Goons

Just between swigs of beer, and we grumble counter clockwise mate!

This alone is one reason we need all the Knights we can bring to bare, you would turn your back on KGB in it's hour of need so easily without knowing the full picture? I hate to say it but I think trusting in the leadership is important, and being loyal and committed to a guild says just as much about a person as it does about the guild their in. Granted you should never blindly follow, however I wouldn't so casually toss aside that which has endured and continues to do so with stories such as this http://oracle.the-kgb.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=41141

KGB can't control what other guilds do in a FFA PVP setting we can control what WE do, or what WE stand for, and using the Goons as a buffer between us and other guilds, thus letting them take all the heat, makes us stronger and gives us valuable time to prepare for the coming battles. People got to do what they got to do, but drawing a conclusion like this would be unfair. It would be like accusing someone of a crime they didn't commit just because they have the same eye color. Sorry about being preachy, but you have to be willing to make a few sacrifices when being a member of a guild. Everyone wants the Glory, Honor, Accolades, Respect, and Fun but no one these days will be patient, or put the work in for it. Guild jumping has become so common these days, that usually people don't see that it isn't the guild that's changed but themselves, and that regardless of where you go, no guild is without it's issues or changes. Guilds are living breathing behemoths, constantly growing or shrinking, and as a dynamic community they have to adapt or die.

warning - wall of text and soapbox inc!

As a disclaimer I appreciate that we can talk about this stuff without people getting truely upset. It's good to have these kinds of talks to refresh our thinking on the subjects, IMO. Being able to talk about controversial topics without letting emotion get in the way is truely one of the bigger signs of maturity.

Who a person associates with says a lot about them. While this is a very common and old statement, it holds truth regardless of circumstances. In fact, if you are at the scene of a crime, even though you didn't do anything and maybe thought it was wrong etc, you are an accessory and will be arrested and treated as a criminal. The same thing applies with who you hang with. If you hang with gang banging drug dealers, even if you are none of those, people will associate you with gangs and dealing drugs. Common sense.

Over my 12 years in MMOs I've seen standards degrade over time. I'm actually the one not jumping ship when I say I'm keeping to my standards. I hold those standards before loyalty to any organization because organizational standards change, more frequently today than ever before. This is true even in RL for me. I think for myself first, and I join organizations that hold to my standards. If I join an organization and later that organization lets go of their standards, how can I stay with that organization? This is a common problem throughout history, whether RL or gaming.

Of course much of the debate stems not from an overt change in standard, but a changing of the definitions used to create that standard. Such as:
- What actions define griefing?
- What actions define PKing?
- What actions are dishonorable?

It's easy to say 'We are honorable'. It's much harder to ask yourself if your definition of what is NOT honorable has changed in the past 10 years.

IMO infiltrating people's organizations through lies and deceit and destroying them from the inside is dishonorable. Our governments do it in RL because we're talking about living or dying IRL. In a game, I'd rather win because I'm a better combat PvPer/strategist or could whittle down their morale through defeats or a long siege and cutting off supply lines, or maybe my industrial arm is better and I win through attrition. Infiltrating a guild by lying about who you are or not fully disclosing such (which btw is 'illegal' for applicants to our guild and obviously grounds for guild removal) and then 'beating' them by dry looting their entire savings and using your position of trust in their guild to destroy their infrastructure then laughing at them because you just crushed their whole desire to play is not honorable.

It's illegal for any KGB to do it to KGB, so why is it ok to do it to others? That's not honor. Honor is fighting fair. Fighting the enemy in the same way we want to be fought. Beat them on the battlefield. Spy on them externally through scouts.

Winning does not justify any means to gain victory. Just because 'everyone is doing it' doesn't make it right or necessary. The only thing that becomes necessary is to guard against such behavior. So you are right in that we can't change them or the degrading morals of guilds on the net, but what we do have control over is what we do and who we associate with.

If KGB was dry looted, we would be pissed. I think we would feel cheated. The golden rule applies here I think. We don't want spies and crap. Applicants lying to gain access, cheat, steal, etc. So why are we doing it to other people and saying its ok? Or if we are not doing that (I hope not) why do we turn a blind eye when our associates do it?

Nobody can argue the goons couldn't steamroll KGB's city if they have many more in numbers (going off of what people have already said in this thread). This is the same in any game, to a certain extent. So the decision has to be made to say 'it's ok for them to do that' or to stand up for what KGB has stood for or maybe it's what I thought KGB stood for, which is doing what is right and honorable in these kinds of games and fighting those who are doing dishonorable things. Anti-PK. Anti-Griefer (someone who lies and cheats you and then laughs about it is a griefer). Yes KGB city would probably be destroyed, but sometimes that's the concequence for standing up for what you believe in.

Some things do change though. I don't think in UO we just jumped on anyone who wasn't KGB or allies, although I didn't play that game with KGB. I think the rules of engagement were don't shoot until shot at. And now we employ more modern standards of not ally, shoot it. This is more of a defense against people using covert, meta ways of gaining intel (people making a 'neutral' guild to spy on enemy activity). So yeah you just have to assume everyone you see who's not waving allied colors is a spy.

Taking that to the next level, it is now common practice for large guilds to create second accounts and lie to gain ally standings with a guild, so they can not only spy from the inside, gaining access to all the secured boards, etc, but also to do internal damage to them by deleting their crap and using the meta advantage to destroy the guild from the inside. So we also have to guard against that.

Guarding against these is different than actually doing them ourselves. Pretty sure KGB is of the opinion that lying and cheating a fellow ally is dishonorable, and when an enemy infiltrates you and takes that oath and then lies and cheats their fellow ally, which technically if they took the oath they are an ally, then it's dishonorable. KGB fights against the dishonorable. KGB doesn't side with the dishonorable.

I'm starting to talk in circles, so I'll conclude. lol

So you see I'm very concerned with who I associate myself with and who I put my efforts into, because TBH it's getting harder and harder to find guilds who fight honorably, don't use meta gaming, and don't laugh when opponents are defeated and instead respect their enemies and thank them for good fights.

I ran with KGB in shadowbane (when I came back the second time - my original guild was disbanded). I loved every minute of it. I like everyone in KGB. I felt like we fought with honor, but now I'm thinking maybe I just didn't know what we were doing covertly?

Does KGB use meta gaming to lie and gain trust with other guilds and then dry loot their infrastructure, and then laugh about it? I hope we don't, although I'm aware and respect it is not my decision to make. Next quesiton is do we not care when other guilds do it? I thought we used to think it was dispicable, but I could be wrong.

The only thing that is my decision is whether or not I associate myself with KGB and invest my time and work into building KGB. I can only do that if I believe in what KGB stands for. I think that is true of all KGBers. So it's not like I or I would hope any of us can enlist with an organization upon first looking at what they stand for, and then never questioning it again. Standards change if you are not keeping a close eye on them. If you take baby steps toward lowering standards, eventually you look around and see KGB is doing what KGB used to fight against. I don't think anyone wants to see that.

Of course maybe the plan is to not stir the pot now, and attack them later once we've built up enough presence and allies because they're slimeballs (IMO dry looting a guild via lies and then laughing about it makes you a slimeball - never could trust you again).

Maybe MMOs are getting to the point, though, where if you stand for honor and no-meta gaming you won't have any allies, because the global standards have just become low all around? lol I don't know.

All very good points, and a excellent read. I will say this that it is up to each member to decide for themselves what matters most to them and hold to their own sense of duty. However, sometimes you have to have a little dirt on you for anyone to trust you, and in some cases you must do a little evil to do a greater good. Now is KGB doing this, no not as far as I am aware, and I doubt we ever would. Ideologies aside a guild doesn't exist without it's members, and no guild is as strong as the membership which represents it. It is the outward persona which draws it's members but ultimately it's the membership itself which defines the guild. While this applies equally to both KGB and the Goons, you still have to look at each in a separate fashion, because each represents different principles, and is faceted by those who claim membership.

I am going to tell you about a recent occurrence, and hope this illustrates my point. Over a year ago I was kicking it around these forums, keeping in touch with a friend here. He suggested we round up all of the old crew, guys we had gamed with over many years and we all come here and join as one in KGB for AOC. A great idea, in theory, however in time things didn't work out and two friends left the guild. Now the point of this story is I'm a standing on the rift between people I've known for ten years or people I've only known for one. I could have left sure but I stopped and asked myself if it was KGB fault they left or theirs, and just because it was theirs does that mean I should abandon my oath?

I guess the point (although I'm probably not making much of one) is that I understand what you are saying, and each man must choose his own path. I just think that stand or fall it's the integrity of each member which produces the guilds reputation and if each individual has no integrity and simply leaves at the first sign of adversity or due to a temporary arrangement, then by default they must be held responsible for any negative repercussions because by leaving you just paved the way for evil to flourish in the absence of good people as KGB looks to replace the lost or fallen.

Each member contributes his or her strength as a guild is designed to do and its the sum of the whole which makes the difference. We can't ride to the rescue of beleaguered peoples, or protect those who need it without good people to do so. As I stated earlier I made the choice to stand with KGB, not the Goons, or my friends who left the guild. I look at the guild, not it's associations, I don't blame KGB when the goons do something wrong, and The truth for me is not the same for everyone else, but I seek Order and KGB does this. Good, evil, it's all relative to the perspective your viewing it through but chaos is something I don't care for, and that is why KGB is a guild for me.

What you really must ask yourself is what do I really want out of a guild? How may I serve the guild? Am I here for my benefits or the guilds? People often think that guilds are just there to benefit them. That's a selfish mentality that has become common place in gaming these days unfortunately. The true definition of a guild is;

1. an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., esp. one formed for mutual aid or protection.
2. any of various medieval associations, as of merchants or artisans, organized to maintain standards and to protect the interests of its members, and that sometimes constituted a local governing body.

But in a gaming context I tend to see it as a service. I lend my sword arm, and in return the guild offers me aid or protection, I don't expect it, therefore I render service unto my guild without question because honor, and integrity are part of who I am and therefore also what I bestow upon the guild.

To me it all depends on how it is done.

The fact is, is that the espionage side of gaming is accepted by the pvp community at large as a legitimate tactic.

Propoganda, and forum warrioring is pretty standard as well to effect the enemies morale/etc. We might not participate in it a lot, but refusing to associate with those who do would not make sense.

Also, Hyperion Kingdom, the targets of said espionage are a massive zerg of thousands of people, and they also employ the same tactics.

MAKE NO MISTAKE - WE DID NOT ALLY WITH GOON BECAUSE WE ARE AFRAID OF GOON.

We allied with Goon, because after talking and visiting with them as well as many others, they share a similar agenda of politics and warfare, and are well organized and led here in darkfall.

If I made alliances because I was afraid of getting zerged by someone, we would be part of Hyperion right now.

Hyperion is the largest zerg ever seen in a game other than Eve , is comprised mostly of forum guilds, uses the same tactics of espionage, and even sends agents to other guilds to talk up Hyperion and sow discord within the ranks of opposing guilds.

This type of tactic is not griefing, its warfare. I will condemn espionage against Hyperion as soon as Hyperion stops bringing 500 people to a 4am EST siege against guilds a fraction of their size.

Well I for one, have never ascribed to the belief we were afraid of the goons. I can assure you of that, I was just illustrating the point that guilds are separate entities regardless of any arrangements, and that what befalls one isn't necessarily going to involve the other or that it's individuals which determine a guilds worth and reputation.

First I'd like to say this thread is NOT to sow dissension! Part of KGB (at least from my experience) is about voicing your concerns and fighting as a family even though we have ranks. So this is me doing that, but shouldn't be seen as a morale attack or something I personally feel is just lame in a meta way like this.

Good points all around. I agree integrity must be in the people to be in the organization, but also the organization leadership must strive for integrity as well, else it becomes a conflict for the individual to do what is commanded or what is right. As ex-military, I know it can be a real problem at times, unfortunately.

I also agree that sometimes small evils must be done to topple big evils.

For Derid, I understand that leaders sometimes do things they wish they didn't have to do in order to protect those they lead. This is one of the hardships of being a leader, and is unavoidable at times.

So it sounds like a better determination as to if something is griefing or not is more in how you treat that enemy once you've 'won'. If you treat them with respect after you've tripped your espionage trap, then it is warfare but if you laugh in their face and say 'wow you guys are horrible', then its griefing? Or a better way to ask is when do you stop the 'morale propaganda' stuff, and say 'Good war guys - Maybe next time you'll beat us'?

Drakiis' post is exactly why I loved fighting as KGB in Shadowbane. KGB has a lot of heart and integrity, and I love that. In SB proper everyone was working toward team goals, and it showed. That's how I like to do it in GvG games, and is why I'm so choosy about who I run with, because my game time is totally invested into the group with little reserved for self. So there's a lot of risk, and I haven't frequented the KGB boards for a long time (my own mistake sorry!), and have just come back to see we're allied with the goons (I am fresh off an EVE stint where [the corp I was with] were fighting them) and that they're pulling the same crap here they do there (disbanding an alliance to more easily destroy the infrastructure and laughing in the enemies faces about it - years of work down the drain not just a couple weeks).

I'd still like to know what we would do if we got the opportunity to dry loot that Hyperion guild. Publicly how would we handle it? Make fun of them or be respectful at their loss? I'm not trying to get KGB to change; I'm just trying to figure out what today's KGB is all about.

Have to say though it sounds like KGB is still the same KGB from SB, which is awesome. =D

*edit* Just wanted to add sorry for stirring the pot if that's the case, and thanks for answering my questions. I've been away for awhile. lol

I've smack talked in the past and from time to time I still do, I have to work very hard on this flaw and often times find it very difficult when I see people attacking the values or morals of something I believe. Whether in game or on the forums I have done my best to curb this and allow Jetstar and the leadership here do it's job without my interference, because I know that they are better representatives for the guild then myself, and they would much rather have a clear field of discussion without random contradicting statements from me.

My experience thus far in KGB over the last year or so has shown that generally KGB smack talk is nonexistent, to mild compared to the things I have seen from other individuals or guilds. In AOC for example I can recall many times having tells sent to me personally or things shouted in public channels that I never responded to, or that KGB never encouraged. I have screen shots of people vomiting from the mouth at me or us and hardly a word is spoken back on to them.

You want proof I say get in the game, decide for yourself, but know this if you value KGB in any way and you wish to see the guild retain it's morals and make friendships which endure there is no other way then to commit yourself to seeing it through to the bitter end, regardless of the arguments or disagreements which happen from time to time. Because brother that's what it means to serve as a knight, and the grit it takes to fight against all odds.

KGB WILL BOW TO NOONE

Let me assure you all that Derid and I take it very seriously. We will not be forced to do anything, we are not afraid of anyone. We would gladly face city destruction if it meant holding to our principles. The thing is, we are veterans at having our City destroyed, and we dont just go away.

KGB is like herpies. You never get rid of us. We will go insurgency, commando if necessary, we will continue to grow, and one day, we will achieve our goals.

This is especially important in current times as we face a superior force and may be looking at starting over. We need everyone involved as much as possible over the next 4 days.

Success or death, I am a Knight of Glory and Beer.....

Well, to be honest, lets not beat around the bush.

For one, this is not the goons I have associated with in the past (thank god), and two, just like donk said, you really need to be in-game to understand the situtation; which is, to be frank, really dire. Allies are just a part of the game, pure and simple, you need them and they need you; this isn't to say we're going to subjugate ourselves to their every whim, but it also means we have to talk to our neighbors.

And, believe me when I say this, KGB has, by far, been the most honorable of all the startup major powers. Not a single member forum trolls on the DFO forums, and we never grief just for the sake of griefing. (enemies are an exception)

A lot of what needed to be said, has been said above; but, suffice it to say, KGB is in a time of need, and good, true, allies are in short supply. sometimes, you have to bury the hatchet and do what you must to complete your goals.

But KGB will always stay true to what it truly is. I think our ejections recently of members that didn't adhere to the rules is an example to our commitment to that standard.