The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (SPECIAL ACCESS) KGB Political Debate Central Shutddown

Blaming Obama on the current government shutdown is ... defies logic. Justify your position.

Its self evident.

House GOP passes budget. Dems wont pass/sign budget.

Dems openly say that they will not until and unless they get exactly and everything they want. They will not even negotiate.

Objectively speaking, there is absolutely no question. The whole "GOP TEA PARTY " whatever is just silliness. All Obama has to do is bend some, even delaying the obviously flawed/glitched/unready rollout by a single year which would give them time to fix all the technical issues... and budget impasse would end.

Obama has not a single leg to stand on.

The things you say defies logic.

Only in epistemic closure infested delirious right groupthink.

Current shutdown is 100% manufactured crisis where a radicalized minority attempts to dictate its agenda to the majority by creating on-going crises by taking both government and creditworthiness of the country as a hostage.



First, it isn't even a budget fight. Budget never happened, this is continuing resolution. Remember whole super committee that did not reach a compromise and triggered sequester that took a chunk out of GDP? Yes, we still following that budget and now we are on continuing resolution because nothing happened since then.



You are off your rocker Derid. GOP is attempting to repeal law of the land that was affirmed by Supreme Court without control of the presidency or senate. This is not a budget measure, this is legislative agenda. Not only that, but GOP is only making demands - there is nothing offered in exchange (give us this or else government shut down), so you can't even call that negotiation.

So lets call things proper names - Democrats are standing their ground and refusing demands by GOP.

If GOP doesn't like ACA - they should win more elections and get control of the Senate and Presidency and pass the bill repealing it. This is how our founding fathers intended system to work. Having minority dictate to majority is subversion of the democratic process.

Imagine if during Reagan times Tip O'Neill demanded Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981 or they would shut down government and let US default on its loans. This is what happening now.



GOP can manufacture crisis like that pretty much on demand, every couple months to a year there could be threats of default and government shutdown. Are you suggesting that MAJORITY completely give up governing and let MINORITY dictate because said minority is willing to be reckless and hold the country as a hostage?


Your slide into Hele-Red delirium is now complete. Listening to you I can with 100% certainty state that your news sources are poisoned.

For emergency detox read this:

False equivalences
Enough with the extortion
BBC shutdown Q&A

Hele, you wouldn't know what happened even if you busted logic in your kitchen in the middle of the night robbing your house.

I think your are having some issues with facts. House is under no obligation to fund anything. Its not a repeal, its simply not funding.

Your talk about budget vs continuing res is splitting syntactic hairs, and meaningless in this context.

You incorrectly invoked epistemic closure. Rather, the only way you can possibly think House should be under any obligation to fund anything... is if you simply believe that the Word of Obama is the only thing that matters. You make defying Obamas wishes sound akin to defying God, which is silly.

Your claiming what the Founders wanted.. honestly makes me sick to my stomach. Madison himself wrote inn the Federalist Papers that the purse strings were the ultimate recourse for reigning in gov't action. I recommend not trying to pass of BS about Founders or Constitution to someone who actually knows something about either. Just looks silly.


GOP has a MAJORITY of the House, which is closest to the people. Again, all this talk about "majority governance blah blah" is ridiculous. Dems unilaterally pushed through this monstrosity despite GOP and a bit more than half the country saying they would continue to fight tooth and nail. Well, Dems lost the House and... surprise... the opposition continues to oppose.

Pass something that doesnt lose you control of Congress and earn the animosity of half the country next time. Boo hoo.

House is under obligation to keep government working, it their main function. Your view is anarchism.


The same thing.



It isn't. You are acting like GOP proposed new budget and Dems shot it down. In reality GOP stapled "repeal Obamacare" (the same one they tried 40-something times on its own) to cont. resolution and sent it out that way. If ACA could be repealed through democratic process, then GOP would have done it by now. They tried, and tried, and tried.... and failed. So now they decided to bypass legislative process.

Have you considered that defunding ACA (remember, it designed to be revenue-neutral) is a tax hike?

Also, have you considered in what this will mean for legislative process if GOP succeeds? GOP one day will be in this position, if minority with nothing to lose can abuse budget and debt ceiling process in this way it will be abused every time. Are you ready to default unless government also funds abortions at all stages, have no working government unless gun control implemented?

Also if congress can dictate in this way, what is the point of having Presidential Veto or Senate? Abolish them already, clearly anything they do pales in comparison to NOT DEFAULTING and NOT SHUTTING GOVERNMENT DOWN.


What do you call self-referential system of believes that makes no coherent sense when rationally analyzed against objective reference points and measurable goals? I suppose we can call it Catholicism. Of wait, that name is already taken.



Purse strings were never meant to be used to hang the nation. "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned." Now show me where Madison wrote that it is acceptable to not to pay for lawful government activities that are authorized, no mandated, by law of the land?


Your stubborn defense of indefensible GOP conduct makes me think that you are ether take me for a fool or are a fool. Now, I know you are not a fool.

If all they are supposed to do is rubber stamp government spending, why do we even need them?

Exactly.

Now Sini, it was fun to play along but if your going to keep flying out to the extremities by creative leaps of logic and syntactical abuse we need to get a few things straight.

First: Its not a shutdown its a slim down. I also just looked out my window... no riots, anarchy, or anything else. Guess what - if this status quo continues there still wont be anarchy.

Second: Its not about repealing Obamacare(Pelosicare) , as has already been established a compromise of delaying the mandate portion kicking in for a year was offered and rejected by Obama. Honestly how can you forget important details like that so easily, and expect to put up an argument?

Since all your arguments stem from your assertion that a repeal is what the GOP has demanded, when the fact is that a 1 year delay has in fact been on the table you have managed to invalidate yourself.

Im going to do a lazy eval here and not address statements made subsequent to a failed logic check.

I will note in passing however, that the system for Obamacare is obviously not in technical working order and even MSM left wing shills like Blitzer have started suggesting that a delay isnt such a bad idea.

I will also note in passing that default is impossible unless deliberate - revenues are greater than debt service payments. Without raising the debt ceiling, there will be no default.. spending will just be reduced to income, which is still considerable.

This whole "situation" can be over simply by Obama giving in on a one year mandate delay for Obamacare. Both parties can then return to their regularly scheduled looting.

Please, saying ACA is "not in technical working order" is like saying that KGB is crashing and burning because in 96 our web application was down. It didn't even started. You do understand that ACA is currently in early enrollment stages, right? Sure website got swamped and crashed under load couple times. This must be because nobody wants ACA, right?

Now, before you start with $634 mil shtick read this .

If it isn't about repealing ACA what is it about? Oh wait, not even GOP know. It is about: "We’re not going to be disrespected,” Rep. Marlin Stutzman. Maybe if GOP stopped acting like clowns and Cruzing around people would start taking them serious. Oh, and Bush years still happened, that too.

I can tell you with certainty, that we don't need current house for anything, but that what we got. What we don't need is for them to get in the way while adults trying to work - we still have recovery to work on, wars to wind down, and banks to regulate.



GOP want something. What do they have to offer in exchange? Minority doesn't get to dictate, win both houses and presidency and then you get to tell how things going to be.

Hey Derid, lets negotiate. You give me 100$. What, no? Why not, why won't you negotiate with me? Fine, I will take 80$. See, I am willing to compromise.