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#112895 - 01/15/13 03:02 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sethan]  
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Originally Posted By: Sethan
So can I get a "no bullshit" answer on what you honestly think would help out this situation?


I stated it number of times, but here it is one more time:

1. Comprehensive database of all legal gun owners - just like cars every gun has to be registered. Just like with your tax returns, this database doesn't have to be public. Comprehensive database of all manufactured guns and all guns in the dealership - this should include ballistics but only for new guns.
2. Mandatory insurance for all gun ownership covering any and all public and third-party costs associated with gun use. If you accidentally discharge your gun into the ceiling and cops have to check up on you - your insurance will get a bill. This will create financial pressures on owners to secure and safely operate their guns and on gun manufacturers to improve weapon safety. If your gun is stolen - you still on the hook for up to N (~5ish) years for any crime.
3. Mandatory gun operator license that has to be renewed - safety course, criminal background check, and medical condition exclusion list. No license, no legal guns.
4. Any transaction, person to person, gun show or dealer, has to be registered with both parties demonstrating license and proof of coverage and registering with #1.
5. New government service that allows citizens dispose of the unwanted guns free of charge. (many states already have this)
6. All gun insurance includes % contribution to victim's fund, if gun is past stature of limitation you can recoup costs from here. Government initializes this fund with initial registration fee imposed all new and existing firearms.

Last but not least - if a crime committed with your gun, you are automatically considered an accessory, unless you can demonstrate that you had not way to notify police of a theft and/or was unaware of it (e.g. house got broken into while on vacation).


With this in place - I wouldn't even oppose private ownership of machine guns, that is if you can afford to pay insurance premium and have a gun operator license.


Overall - if I walk on the street and get hit and mangled by the car, I have insurance and owner to go after for damages. If I get shot by a gun, then I am SOL. This should change.

Last edited by sini; 01/15/13 03:11 PM.

#112896 - 01/15/13 03:18 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Tasorin]  
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Thank you Sini

Also I did not say governments do not control guns. I said they do not control guns for profit.



Last edited by Sethan; 01/15/13 03:24 PM.
#112901 - 01/15/13 03:35 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Tasorin]  
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1. Agreed
2. Disagree, You shouldnt have to pay to insure your right to bear arms. Also I don't want someone's Grandpa getting arrested because some thug stole his gun.
3. Agreed
4. Agreed
5. Agreed
6. Disagree, Refer to #2.

#112904 - 01/15/13 04:06 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Tasorin]  
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Keep in mind I own a lot of these *scary* firearms, have attended numerous firearm training/safety courses, a CHL holder and have competed in shooting competitions for several years. I can probably out perform most police and military personal in shooting and safety. I say this because I shoot along side a lot of them at the range and in competitions.

So most people would label me a gun nut and apply a lot of negative stereotypes to me. I know for a fact that most of the people in my community of gun owners are not opposed to some changes. They are some of the most responsible, safe and patriotic people I know.

The Solution = Responsibility and Accountability

I see the result of lax gun laws on a first hand basis. I see people come out with small arsenals of weapons and have no freaking clue what they are doing with them. They are unsafe, a danger to me and a walking accident waiting to happen. That is why I firmly believe in educating gun owners on safety and how to operate their firearms.

My opinions do not come from some political forum or mass media news channel. I grew up in Texas surrounded by guns and have used them since I was a little kid.

I think educating gun owners prior to purchase and holding them accountable is a excellent solution.

#112906 - 01/15/13 04:35 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sini
Most governments do control firearms. US has by far most lax gun laws in the world and can proudly show by far most violent gun deaths in a civilized world. You have to look at places with a raging civil wars to find more gun deaths than US.


Bad facts are bad The US isn't the worst by a very long shot guy, get your shit right.

#112914 - 01/15/13 06:28 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sini]  
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"this should include ballistics but only for new guns."

Pointless. Easy to modify. Contrary to what CSI likes to portray, matching a round to a specific gun is nigh impossible.
Change or modify the barrel, extractor or firing pin and the ballistics DB becomes moot.

Mandatory insurance for all gun ownership ? lol no

I'll agree to it when you get special insurance for owning exotic cars, alcohol, tobacco or fast-food purchases. After all, don't want everyone else paying for any potential health issues that may arise due to their use . . .

"If your gun is stolen - you still on the hook for up to N (~5ish) years for any crime"

LOL. Really ? Someone steals your car and mows down a dozen folks while running from the police you still think this is a good idea ? -facepalm-

"Mandatory gun operator license that has to be renewed"

It's called a CHL in most States. In addition, when you actually purchase a firearm you have to answer a set of potentially disqualifying questions. Answer yes to any of them and your purchase will be denied. These include mental health questions as well as potential criminal history. ( both pending and historical )

"Last but not least - if a crime committed with your gun, you are automatically considered an accessory"

It would be easier if you just locked up everyone. If I break into your home and download gobs and gobs of vegetable porn ( hot corn on corn action ! ) should you be charged with a crime for failing to prevent me from breaking into your house ? Maybe you left the garage open ? Or failed to lock a window ? See how slippery this slope gets ?

"With this in place - I wouldn't even oppose private ownership of machine guns, that is if you can afford to pay insurance premium and have a gun operator license."

So, with all of that in place, Meet Joe.

Joe is a perfect citizen. No criminal history, no mental illness.

Joe goes and buys a scary gun. He registers it, keeps it in a safe, pays his new insurance premiums, and keeps his new license up to date like he is supposed to.

Joe takes his firearm to the range and enjoys it for many years.

Then, one day, Joe is let go from his job. Maybe Joe has some marital issues as well and his wife leaves him with the kids due to his inability to find a new job. Joe starts drinking.

Joe gets a little too hammered and decides his life, as he knows it, is over. He pulls the weapon from the safe, drives down to his former employers office and opens fire, killing a dozen before police can bring him down in a hail of gunfire.
( The irony of relying on men with guns to fix this notwithstanding )

At no point did any of the "new" rules or regulations do a damn thing to stop this event from happening. All you did was add layers of bureaucracy to the system and, in the end, the result was the same.

The great-big-point being:

RULES only work for folks who are willing to abide by them.
Once you cross that line and decide you are NOT, the entire system implodes and becomes a waste of time.



Last edited by Daye; 01/15/13 06:42 PM.

#112918 - 01/15/13 06:49 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sethan]  
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Originally Posted By: Sethan
2. Disagree, You shouldnt have to pay to insure your right to bear arms. Also I don't want someone's Grandpa getting arrested because some thug stole his gun.


Why not? Grandpa should go into PYITA prison if he is too senile to secure his guns and too senile to report them stolen. They don't let senile seniors drive cars, why guns should be any different?

You don't pay to insure your right to bear arms, you pay to ensure your potential misuse of this right.


#112919 - 01/15/13 06:50 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Brutal]  
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Originally Posted By: Brutal
Originally Posted By: sini
Most governments do control firearms. US has by far most lax gun laws in the world and can proudly show by far most violent gun deaths in a civilized world. You have to look at places with a raging civil wars to find more gun deaths than US.


Bad facts are bad The US isn't the worst by a very long shot guy, get your shit right.


Yes, because we should be on the list next to countries like:

El Salvador
Jamaica
Honduras
Guatemala
Swaziland
Colombia


#112921 - 01/15/13 07:07 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Tasorin]  
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Chuckle

So instead you want us to be on a list with:

Soviet Era Russia
China
Nazi Era Germany

On a positive note, I don't think any of the countries you mentioned are in danger of imploding economically. So they're actually better off than we are atm :D


#112924 - 01/15/13 07:09 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sini
Originally Posted By: Sethan
2. Disagree, You shouldnt have to pay to insure your right to bear arms. Also I don't want someone's Grandpa getting arrested because some thug stole his gun.


Why not? Grandpa should go into PYITA prison if he is too senile to secure his guns and too senile to report them stolen. They don't let senile seniors drive cars, why guns should be any different?

You don't pay to insure your right to bear arms, you pay to ensure your potential misuse of this right.


It goes a lot further than Grandpa getting locked up for leaving his guns in the closet. Shits happens...Things that are properly locked up get stolen everyday. There are already enough criminally negligent storage of a firearm laws on the book that we dont need to go writing anymore.

I see where you are going with the insurance on firearms situation but I still do not agree with it at all. That opens the door for all kinds of abuse on your 2nd amendement rights. It may sound innocent at the start but will become a tool to abuse your right to bear arms. I could use some extreme examples like having to ensure your freedom of speech since it can get you punched in the nose or killed for saying the wrong thing.

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