Tonight Donk said we need support role players.
To be a proper support player you need....
heal other
sacrifice
haste
hymn of might
hymn and vigor
spirit fingers
and jazz hands
Mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
We need to get some facts straight
1) Everyone should be crosshealing with sacrifice and heal other
2) NO ONE should level this spell list BEFORE their damage, self-buff and melee skills.
I hate to be blunt, but by encouraging people to level these spells and skills BEFORE their own damage and self-improvement spells/abilities, you are encouraging people to suck.
This is NOT viable, and these skills should ONLY be invested in if you are already pvp viable and have extra cash to spare.
It's usefull, yes, but by posting this here, I think you can mistakingly encourage a new player to invest all their time in these spells before everything else, thusly ensuring they are the first to die in pvp.
Take care of yourself first, then you can help other people. God knows it takes long enough to take care of yourself.
Please lets not encourage the suck.
Just my opinion.
i tried to get Donk to post this, but hey, it's Donk. I told him that there was already a discussion about support characters and that no one should be support, but cross support. He wouldn't have any of it though. lol
Anyways, I agree Syloc. I'm getting my basic offensive skills first, then maybe a little bit of support.
Mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
We need to get some facts straight
1) Everyone should be crosshealing with sacrifice and heal other
2) NO ONE should level this spell list BEFORE their damage, self-buff and melee skills.
I hate to be blunt, but by encouraging people to level these spells and skills BEFORE their own damage and self-improvement spells/abilities, you are encouraging people to suck.
This is NOT viable, and these skills should ONLY be invested in if you are already pvp viable and have extra cash to spare.
It's usefull, yes, but by posting this here, I think you can mistakingly encourage a new player to invest all their time in these spells before everything else, thusly ensuring they are the first to die in pvp.
Take care of yourself first, then you can help other people. God knows it takes long enough to take care of yourself.
Please lets not encourage the suck.
Just my opinion.
Well I guess I have done Everything wrong then... LOL
I am going support first. Because if I dont.. It wont happen for a very very long time.
I have always played a support role in every game I have played, Be it a healer or a buffer. It is what I am great at.
I know this way will take me much longer. But its not about a rush in skills that I love; It is that I am helping my friends as well.
So basically Don't Knock someones choice in skill gains. As long as they are improving their character; That is what matters.
My goal is to get the basic offensive skills. a good aoe, witches brew, mana>stam, stam>health, a weapon mastery, archery, as well as heal other and a couple of buffs and self buffs. then i'll start focusing on hitting those advanced spells.
in the basic training in the army, the first thing we learned was how walk and talk, then how to shoot someone, then the next week we learned how to treat a stomach wound. then after graduation from basic, we went to the advanced schools.
1. Any Level 50 Elemental AoE
2. Heal Other > 50
3. One Two Handed Weapon > 75
4. Witch's Brew
5. Sacrifice
Hymn of Might/Vigor is like gravy on top. If you have all of the above abilities then you will be effective in playing a support role. If you wish to advance your support might, then you should continue to focus on self buff/other buff and debuffing. If your going to try and be a debuffer then your going to need Necromancy > 40 as well for the indirect HP debuff and debuff by weapon type to add insult to injury.
Donk was referring to a support class after referencing a "buff bot". I don't believe his intentions were as a live playable character.
I may be wrong but he was asking about alt "buff bot" and support characters in the same conversation.
I agree 100% with the concept of support characters, even as mains.
I always thought that this was one of the most lacking aspects of DF, no apparent cleric\priest type.
Syloc, I think your point about "sucking" may be true in small scale PVP ... but the point seems a bit short sighted when it comes to city defense, sieging & large group PvP.
I have nothing against different playstyles, however, you have to back up your claims with theory and explinations rather than saying "Just because".
Fact is, these are all single target spells. Also, spells that are situational at best, and something that can be combined with a current skills set of damage spells or a melee type character.
The reason I am against promoting the "support" character, is not how people build their characters, but how they play them - which is passively.
In sieges, EVERYONE, not just "Key" players should be crosshealing. Unless you are in plate, infernal or dragon - I can't think of any justification that says you can't heal when the moment is right.
What is the role of support players in sieges anyway? Healing? Everyone can and SHOULD do that. Keeping everyone buffed? I can buy that, but what happens in combat? It is hard to keep proper "battle lines" in close quarters pvp because of the simple fact that you need some survivability.
The reason Priests and heal classes were effective in Shadowbane pvp is because they had Crowd Control Abilities that allowed them to kite and heal.
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The only viability of a "Support" type character, would be if we are going the "Dominion" style of pvp - which is level up your nukes, keep your distance from enemy, and single target call targets.
This is not the case in KGB. Our best pvpers are rush types, and even those that have high magics end up kiting and kill targets of opportunity rather than calling targets.
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I am not knocking people's playstyle, I am trying to emphasize the fact that Darkfall is a different MMO.
If you want to play a support "class" that's fine. State your arguments here so we can understand your role and so we can play accordingly.
Right now, all the arguments center around the idea that, in sieges, you will be buffing and healing - and in small group pvp, you will be buff bots before the battle and heal bots during the battle. (Which, I believe, is impractical)
Can you heal teammates versus people that are doing figure 8s around them? I sure can't. If it's a 2 on 2, can you keep your teammate alive long enough to sway the battle?
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IF I were to force a support spec, I would do the following instead.
Primary Spell Usage (In no particular order)
Confusion
Eye Rot
Pestilence
Stormblast
Air Magic (For Stamina Drain)
Heal Other
Sacrifice
(All Elemental Debuffs, depending on who you group with)
Secondary Spells
haste
hymn of might
hymn and vigor
spirit fingers
and jazz hands
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The justification of this template is simple. You are not a DD (Direct Damage) character, instead you are focused for confusion/eyerot, pestilance debuff, and Air magic for the stamnia drain. The heals are helpful, but a SECONDARY priority - in that, it's situtational. Sometimes, you can't stand by and watch your teammate get greatsworded up the ass, you have to get in there with him, or eyerot confusion the other guy. (Or something you can think of)
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We have to get serious guys. And this means BACKING up playstyle suggestions with facts and templates rather than just "winging it".
This was my mistake early Darkfall, I tried to go Full Archer and I couldn't. I tried to force something into a system that just plain didn't exist.
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Look, here's the truth of the matter. I am not against ANYTHING that can be justified or shown to me in-game as valid.
However, if you cannot explain it and give a plan of action during battle (Like I did in the above template), then chances are you are forcing something that doesn't work.
Here's an example from Shadowbane.
Someone made a 30 con Vamp Scout (or something like that once) after a patch, and I dismissed it as bullshit. I mean a low con scout that can be killed in a couple of hits? WTF, that's gimp right? However, he posted the two vamp drains, racial resistance, and explained to me the playstyle in a spec group trumped the weakness of the hitpoints, and I was sold.
However, there was another guy at launch that insisted on creating a staff melee user. He leveled that sucker up as much as he could and insisted it was great. It wasn't. It never was. And he was a liability in combat every time we stepped out onto the field.
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We need more support characters? I don't get the argument. Support characters can be valid if planned accordingly. But blindly training spells without justification sends the wrong message to our newer players.
Give me an argument and I can back it up if it's valid. (Hell, we might find that template that no on uses)
However, if we want to be the best, we have to accept the fact that some things in Darkfall will never be. (Like the 100% Archer that I've always dreamed of)
Also keep in mind, I like the discussion of new roles. It really does sound like i'm blind bashing an idea, but I'm not, I just say all my arguments in a demanding manner.
I want the original poster to fire back at me with facts and explination, rather than blind acceptance of my opinion. I am not so hard headed, if you have a sound argument, I can accept that.
Scrolling back, it does sound like blind bashing, and that was not intended i swear. =P
Keep the discussion and debate going!
Syloc, I know you said you cant heal someone when they are doing figure 8's n what not..
That is not really what the heals are for.
Those that choose to go support are usually not in the thick of things. on the EU server we used to set up Healing Stations that were slightly out of the thick of things. It was up to the rest of the people on our side to pull back for the heals and rebuffs.
In small scale pvp.. It may not be super effective but in siege warfare it does help. Granted we wont see a siege every day or every time we log in, But its good to be prepared. Can you go with out a support role, sure you can.
The main reason to go a support role is not to be uber and get lots of kills, Its to help your team mates, and Works best for someone that likes to play that type of role.
I agree with you that Support Roles should get all the debuffs and utility spells like Eye Rot, and Confusion. They will make things much more viable for them in small scale combat.
Like I said in my above post, I have almost always rolled a support type character. It is what I love to play. Even in FPS games I always rolled a medic/support style. It meshes well with my playstyle.
I am sure that once I have all of my "support temp" worked out and closer to complete, I would work more on the Offensive things.
Anyone choosing this playstyle and template better get used to getting killed a bit till you have enough knowledge to fight back more effectively. It is not a role for the masses. It takes someone who understands and likes this type of template.
If you changed Kay's or Mor's template up to be like mine, I doubt they would be as effective. But the same goes for me, I don't always do as well with the template that many have gone already.
I would contend, though, that with the power of some of these spells, you could heal on the fly just as fast. There's just no need for the healing station imho if you do heal other + sacrifice, + lay on hands + witches brew.
Even with support toons, I would prefer that we train everybody to be mobile, think on their feet, and be always, ALWAYS moving. At the very least, spamming confusion and eyerot while on down time. Although I don't know the cooldown on both those spells, but if eyerot is a lower cooldown enough, that's good support as long as you don't hit friendlies.
The fact is, sieges just don't happen enough. Although I would agree it would be more helpful then.