FAQ Discussion thread. - The KGB Oracle

Discuss.

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peoples and guilds not on the friends list are enemies by default.

Doesn’t sound very KGB to me

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DFO is a pvp game, being played by people who want to kick your ass and take your stuff, and/or own your land.

Is it? Sounds like a huge over simplification to me. It is that whole strike first before you find out what is really going on. This statement along with the first means we will be knee deep in blood before finding out anything about the people we are ganking.

I am sure there is a more definitive way of stating what the guild outlines are with reguards to PvP.

Just my take on it.

Like I say, people need to use their head.

From what I am hearing about the system, it will be a lot like Darktide AC PvP server... and basically people literally attacked you there the second you logged in.

Once you got established somewhere with some friends, and used to an area you found out who was cool and who was definatly enemies, but if they had lvls/numbers on you - even the cool people ganked you until you fought a few times and eventually got to talking.

If you have ideas on how to be more definitive, then I would love to hear them. I honestly can not think of a better way to put it than I already have. I am open to suggestions and thoughts, but so far a "perfect" system has eluded me.

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Also, something to remember is that any racial faction not of your own is something you gain karma points for killing. This factors into this equation. Part of the reason I have put forth the RoE as such, is to allow for being friendly with cool non-in-game-racial-allies, as well as leaving to the door open to kill asshats who happen to share the same race.

The way the PvP/karma/etc flagging is setup, makes it even more difficult than usual to craft an effective, non nonsense, yet UO-KGB type RoE system.

Let me share the ROE we used in AOC. It will answer your questions.

Here is the system we used in AOC, it will be modified slightly, but the foundation is the same. Please see my comments below on ROE, and Guild Conduct.

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RULES OF CONDUCT

SECTION 1: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

Clause 1: You may never, under any circumstances, attack or kill a member of our Alliance
If you have problems with someone, you can contact leadership and they will deal with it through diplomatic channels.
Clause 2: If an individual is not an ally, assume he/she is a threat. You may engage first. The highest ranking officer present at the scene at the time will make that decision. However, above all act honorably. No griefing, trash talking. Conversations are fine, but represent the honor of the guild well in both deed and in word. There will be no special circumstances, no exceptions. No, "Wait, I am an allied GM's friend's Mother's Cousin". If you are not a labeled member of an Allied organization, shoot first and ask questions later. You can always res or return loot.

SECTION 2: GENERAL CONDUCT

Clause 1:Each member must know and understand the rules of KGB. Please make sure you understand the basic rules of KGB and the KGB System. This was updated in January of 2007, please don't assume you understand, take the time to review the links below:
The KGB National Archives - Home of the Governing Documents
Quick Section Links:
The KGB Bill of Rights and Conduct (General Orders)
The KGB Articles of Confederation (Faction Government)
The KGB CONSTITUTION (General Government Structure)
Clause 2:This is a re-post of General Order 2 from the KGB Bill of Rights and Conduct and is KEY:
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General Order 2: "Thou shalt swear faith to no other nation but KGB”
You are exclusively a Citizen of the KGB. You must put the goals of the KGB ahead of your own, and to put your loyalty to the KGB above all else. As a KGB citizen, you must not be a member of any other organization in any land where the KGB has a presence. In lands where the KGB does not have a presence, your affiliation with other organizations must remain anonymous and not be in conflict with KGB (for instance, you are a member of the XXX organization in a game called Kill Everyone Online, and the KGB is a foe of XXX in another world). If KGB leadership determines there is a conflict of interest, then you would be asked to either leave the other organization, or renounce your KGB citizenship. (see the complete General Order for information on OPEN Factions)

Clause 3:Statement from the KGB High King
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GETTING STARTED ON THE RIGHT TRACK
I want to get things started off right and try to avoid the divisive issues that have hurt us in the past.

GAMING STYLE -
First off, we all know there are power gamers in this guild, and there are casual players. There always seems to be a problem when the few out level the many. In AoC this is a good thing. Because those level 80 players will be able to invite you to sieges and make you their level, only level 80 players can do it. Please do not hound these power players about power leveling. There first order is to get to level 80 as fast as possible then assist others. Please respect this and those that choose to make the ultimate commitment and be some of the first people to get to 80.

THIS IS FFA!
Secondly, we all know this is a FFA game and your going to die. Complaining in guild chat at the higher levels is not acceptable and it's just going to divide us more. We are in an Alliance, use it. Find groups of folks with like time commitments and work with them. There should be a large pool to choose from with over 200+ members in the alliance. When the guys get to 80, yes i expect them to go out and kill people left and right to help the lower folks out, but until they get 80 I want them not stop for anything or anyone. Lets forgo drama.

CRAFTING -
I would also like to remind people it doesn't take people in AoC long to collect materials for crafters, and we are gonna need a huge amount of wood for the guild city. So if some of you could get the skill to do that, I'm sure your guild mates will appreciate it. We will post a name for you to send the materials to. Also look for leather and items of that nature off of mobs as drops when they die.

We are all adults and we want to enjoy the game. Remember, Officers are not babysitters, and whining, complaining or just being down right negative will not be tolorated. It hurts guild morale, starts unwanted drama, and ruins the gaming experience for everyone. I want everyone to know that I am going to be PROACTIVE in dealing with this kind of thing. I am going to have officers report to me in detail. I am not going to allow anyone to interfere with our success in this endeavor.

SECTION 3: ENFORCEMENT OF KGB RULES

Clause 1:As defined in Section 3 of the KGB Articles of Confederation, Faction Leaders holding the rank of (GM2/F5) High Chancellor, (F4) Chancellor, or (F3) Vice Chancellor has the power (Quoted from Articles of Confederation Section 3, Clause 3) "To remove a member or officer of KGB from their factions stone/roster/TS/Vent immediately at any time. **In such a case, it should then go IMMEDIATELY to the Court and the Senate , and the faction leadership should be REQUIRED to submit an incident report to Court/Senate/HK/Someone explaining why it was necessary, what charges they wish to bring, etc."
Clause 2:Even if removed from the in game Organization, you must adhere to all KGB rules and regulations if you wish to retain your overall KGB citizenship. You remain a KGB Citizen despite your affiliation with the in game Organization and you retain your accountability for your actions.
Clause 3:Upon review and process from the KGB Supreme Court, removed members may be reinstated after consequences have been completed.

This worked well for us in AOC. We had to adapt our traditional role to a FFA environment, but at the same time, not tie the hands of our forces in combat. We are counting on the honor and integrity of our membership to do the right thing.

We will be adapting this to DFO, but the spirit is the same.

Conduct between our members is going to be strictly enforced per the changes to General Order #1:

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General Order 1: "Thou shalt uphold and abide by the ideals our Nation was built upon"
KGB Citizens have been striving to present themselves as honorable, respectable, and chivalrous since 1997. In the beginning, we came together to combat those whose existence was based on ruining the gaming experience for others. Over time we have evolved, but a basic idea and code remains. Respect both your fellow Citizens, Friends, and Foes alike whenever possible. Problems will occur and tempers will flare. Help solve the problems with calm discussion and be respectful to others if possible. Some of our foes may not deserve this respect, but do your best to offer it. Always try to respect these ideals and the many members who came before you. Always consider your nations reputation that we all have worked hard to maintain since 1997. It was this bond that brought us all together and keeps us strong.
The following policy will be enforced by the KGB Federal Faction and Supreme Court in accordance with Article 4, Section 1, of the KGB Constitution:
KGB citizens will treat each other with honor and respect and never take part in Personal Harassment. What is harassment? It is repeated, intrusive or unwanted acts, words or gestures that are intended to adversely affect the safety, security or privacy of another, regardless of the relationship between the actor and the intended target. Harassment is further defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim.

Humor and joking are ok, and you should be sure to let someone know if you are not comfortable. It is no longer considered joking if you are made to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated. Make sure you always respect your fellow citizens.

If you feel you have been the victim of harassment, first send a private message to the actor and let them know you were offended. If the behavior continues, file a KGB Supreme Court Conduct report and allow the system to protect you. Retaliation for submitting a Conduct Report will never be tolerated, and may result in dismissal from KGB.

Tolerance for bad behavior has been one of my biggest mistakes in the past, and has been divisive and we have paid a heavy cost over the years. I am resetting the bar, and starting fresh with DFO. Everyone will be equal in my eyes! Be advised though, I have strongly urged the DFO leadership to be stern and enforce the rules to the fullest extent of the law. I too have adopted this way of thinking.

In short, if you have had problems with me in the past, the slate is wiped clean, lets all work together as brothers and sisters, and make this the best that we can.

Everyone should read all this very closely and I would ask that you take a fresh look at the General Orders, Articles of Confederation, Armed Forces pages.

Cheers guys, that clears a lot of things up for me.

Arginal, this is a difficult subject. In the days of old, our enemies used our own rules against us in many cases, this gave us a huge disadvantage. In the system above, the decision is in each of your hands, and you are expected to take that responsibility seriously. Many of us are far enough along in years that we can play and act mature and treat even our vanquished enemies with respect. That is "CLASS" in my opinion, and will leave a lasting impression on anyone who witnesses our behavior.

IMO, Alfar is the best choice of the entire set of races, being as it wont then be a problem to treat everyone else as enemy, since technically it will be. More flagged people to fight. I also think Alfar will probabaly have less inter-race pking, since Alfar will be pretty much at war with everyone from the get go.

good list so far, keep it up!

In my opinion, we will be able to avoid all the ganker guilds by going Alfar (cause they'll go alfar too), but, I'm kinda leaning toward human, just cause we'll be able to experiment more with characters and not be pigon holed into one thing.

You know, there was one point, and I don't know how you guys did this in the past, but why isn't Vent Mandatory? I know, this may limit your membership, especially for those casual players ... but I was always of the opinion, AT THE VERY LEAST, you should be able to hear us on vent.

Having a mic isn't all the necessary, but when we're doing Group PvP, and coordinating, there's NO substitute for being in vent, even if your just listening.

The only problem i've come across though the years is when people don't use headphones and don't want their family to hear all the crap that goes on in vent, and even then, there's a simple solution. (use headphones)

Just my 2 cents.

Agree completely with your Vent sentiments. I really have a difficult time even remembering to type when in-game and using Vent. Only exception I'd make would be for Uber or someone with a similar reason for not utilizing Vent..

IMO only people who are totally self concious, or totally lazy do not have vent. (mostly #1, and for no good reason)

Vent is a must have for anyone who wants to compete in online gaming

headset - 10 bucks! get out of 1985!

I like the Alfar idea

You cant get pigon holed into one thing. it is skill base not race based.

Personally I like Human, always have, but I am not going to mandate. I am going to leave it up to the High Chancellor.

Alfar stats are caster biased? Highest INT and lowest STR.

Doesnt matter to me though

Humans have a roxor special weapon if we play good. But it may attracts a lot of newbies (less than Mirdain and Fur, but a lot).
Alfar may attract too much high e-peen guilds. It may be a problem, but it'll get us a lot of action.

those are starting stats. Just like UO, stats/skills/etc will be the same across all races. I like Humans as well, I was only stating Alfar becuase even before this FAQ/announce I was thinking about Alfar being the best becuase they are already at free range War with everyone.

I wouldnt mind human either, but i figure most everyone will be human and we will have to take a lot more counts that way.

either is good for me

Where's the dorf vote????

I say Alfar as well unless we discover that there are several races within close enough proximity to succeed with a ARAC stance. The important thing *in release* is for us all to group up immediately upon character creation and skill up in groups for mutual protection and maximum grindage, etc.

In beta, I think it's crucial we have characters across the boards so we can collect as much intel/data as possible for use in release!

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those are starting stats. Just like UO, stats/skills/etc will be the same across all races. I like Humans as well, I was only stating Alfar becuase even before this FAQ/announce I was thinking about Alfar being the best becuase they are already at free range War with everyone.

I wouldnt mind human either, but i figure most everyone will be human and we will have to take a lot more counts that way.

either is good for me

I thought DFO was FFA. This just means you cant visit any other races cities, which is a disadvantage in my opinion. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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those are starting stats. Just like UO, stats/skills/etc will be the same across all races. I like Humans as well, I was only stating Alfar becuase even before this FAQ/announce I was thinking about Alfar being the best becuase they are already at free range War with everyone.

I wouldnt mind human either, but i figure most everyone will be human and we will have to take a lot more counts that way.

either is good for me

I thought DFO was FFA. This just means you cant visit any other races cities, which is a disadvantage in my opinion. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I believe race has an impact on the criminal tagging system (aka blue, grey, or red a la UO).

It is FFO, but you only take "counts" from killing a faction not allied to you.

The factions are split into 3, and they are always at "war"

1. Alfar
2. Mahrim/Orcs
3. Humans/Elves/Dwarves

Come on people. Go to the site and read up. Its not like we havent had time to do a little research.

I would like to voice my opinion on Vent as well...

For ANY combat situations or mass "raids" vent IS and always should be manditory! Anyone who has played other MMO's that require strategy and timing to defeat uberboss_004 knows this.

Sorry for those who want to stay quiet but c'mon most all computers today can handle vent and a mic/headphone setup.

Just my humble opinion

I agree about vent. It's a must have (ok, the leader will have to give order by chat for uber also) and some discipline during action is mandatory.

If you already have good headphones and don't want to buy a headphone/mic combo, buy this : http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?idx=210

My take on Vent: Just FYI, I don't have turrets syndrome so if I call you all dirty no good names, I meant it.

Also, Falx has girly voice irl

Lies lies and more lies!

Currently, the poll on the Darkfall forums indicates that the population breakdown will be:

17.82% Alfar
10.77% Dwarves
25.00% Humans
24.33% Mahirim
13.23% Mirdain
8.84% Orks

This means a breakdown of:
1. Alfar 17.82%
2. Mahrim/Orcs 33.17%
3. Humans/Elves/Dwarves 49%

Now I'm not sure what the special racial abilities are, so I can't judge on that, but it's obvious that the Alfar will have the most opportunity for combat. I'd also like to mention that I don't believe there's anyway for KGB to reasonably select Alfar with our current good-aligned outlook (Alfar are evil to the core). Personally, though, I'm cool with any race besides the werewolves. In the immortal words of G.I. Jane, "I'm just here to blow shit up."

Depending on alliances, it might not even be a choice. Besides that however, there will never be any shortage of combat, especially since the Savage Alliance is doing Mahrim/Orcs and other Zerg-like guilds.

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You know, there was one point, and I don't know how you guys did this in the past, but why isn't Vent Mandatory? I know, this may limit your membership, especially for those casual players ... but I was always of the opinion, AT THE VERY LEAST, you should be able to hear us on vent.

Having a mic isn't all the necessary, but when we're doing Group PvP, and coordinating, there's NO substitute for being in vent, even if your just listening.

The only problem i've come across though the years is when people don't use headphones and don't want their family to hear all the crap that goes on in vent, and even then, there's a simple solution. (use headphones)

Just my 2 cents.

I find it surprising that a bunch of old-school ex-hardcore gamers as ourselves would even be discussing this, I've almost forgotten how to type in the last 6-8 years I've been a gamer due to TS and Vent(Don't expect me to read /p /g or any other in game chat while there is action ongoing either, I mute it out).

Cheers,
Royel

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Currently, the poll on the Darkfall forums indicates that the population breakdown will be:

17.82% Alfar
10.77% Dwarves
25.00% Humans
24.33% Mahirim
13.23% Mirdain
8.84% Orks

This means a breakdown of:
1. Alfar 17.82%
2. Mahrim/Orcs 33.17%
3. Humans/Elves/Dwarves 49%

Now I'm not sure what the special racial abilities are, so I can't judge on that, but it's obvious that the Alfar will have the most opportunity for combat. I'd also like to mention that I don't believe there's anyway for KGB to reasonably select Alfar with our current good-aligned outlook (Alfar are evil to the core). Personally, though, I'm cool with any race besides the werewolves. In the immortal words of G.I. Jane, "I'm just here to blow shit up."

Maybe a poll on the Oracle would be a good idea, I'm still debating the race I'd like to see us play most as well, but I am a bit more inclined to suggest Alfar over Human at this time.

<edit> As for the Alfar being evil, this is game lore, and does not mandate the rules for us, we can follow KGB RoE with any race, if roleplaying to the games lore is important, I'd suggest a good single player RPG game to get that crap out of your system

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the unfortunate side to the using vent so much you dont read anymore (im in the same boat) is that in game chat is in your chat window only there is not chat bubbles so you will need to keep an eye on it or you will miss people talking to you

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the unfortunate side to the using vent so much you dont read anymore (im in the same boat) is that in game chat is in your chat window only there is not chat bubbles so you will need to keep an eye on it or you will miss people talking to you

Anyone that's important would be talking to me in Vent.. I usally set up game windows and filter chat in a fashion that accomadates my "disabilities" anyhow, I just don't prioritize chat while engaged and it's not an effective means to get information across to me (and seems many others) fast enough.

i dont limit the people id want to talk to by them being in my guild honestly or in vent.
you never know how yer gonna meet someone
i didnt meet kgb by being on vent with them
of course back then vent didnt even exhist ICQ ftw

Maybe I should have said anything that's important, and this primarily means while pvp'ing. I certainly still talk with people outside of Vent, but I find it a huge handicap to try and do group pvp while not in vent, I myself will not take the time to stop fighting and type out something and give precious opportunity away for kicking some ass.

Alfar having the most available targets to attack is a good first choice but I think we'll need to know racial stats etc before a final decision is made. Hence Derid suggesting we play all the races for beta to get a feel for whats the best!

I hate the "KGB plays the good guy" argument to decide what race we should play.
We play the good guy as the race we chose to play. It doesnt matter if we play human or alfar.
This game has set in bad guys by what you decide to play.

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<edit> As for the Alfar being evil, this is game lore, and does not mandate the rules for us, we can follow KGB RoE with any race, if roleplaying to the games lore is important, I'd suggest a good single player RPG game to get that crap out of your system </edit>

Well obviously we can play however we want no matter what race we choose. I just think it's kind of silly to play the evil race while we pass ourselves off as the defenders of the just and protectors of the newbies.

I'm sure you'll come to know my thoughts and feelings on gaming in general in the near future. I'm a hardcore gamer that's in it for the PvP and honor more than the roleplay and banksitting. I was just making the point, as it will eventually come into play through politics I'm sure. Honestly, I'd rather see the guild change its public stance a little more towards honor and less towards traditional trends than change races in the game.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not talking about Derid's leadership or any other such thing. I think his plans have been and will be great. I'm talking more about the perception of the KGB guild as a whole.

Ok, so one more time just to stem arguments about this ill-thought post: I think KGB and KGB leadership is great and moving in the right direction. My only issue is that playing Alfar will eventually lead to political issues because of perceptions. A slight change in wording our guild mission would fix that. KGB has generally been a defensive guild, but Alfar are seen as an aggressive race. We all know that we play the game to be aggressive, so let's just own up to it and revise our political statement.

I wanted to try and explain my thoughts a bit more, since I have this bad feeling that my post will start a huge argument, and that's not my intent at all. Prepare for more rambling.

Alfar is the "evil" race. KGB has always been about protecting the innocent. If Alfar are evil, that means it will attract the hardcore PvPers and the people that want to roleplay evil, so what innocents are we defending?

When JetStar politics, he's always done so (from what I've been able to witness) from the platform of the righteous. That's worked very well for him and KGB, but has led to the perception of being a gankfest zerg guild full of newbies and underskilled wannabes. This perception combined with no righteous platform will make developing a good reputation hard to do, and end with much double-speak, backtracking, and rumor mongering.

Now, we know that there is skill in this guild. We know that the rap KGB has among the elite is bogus (maybe it was true in UO-SP, but it's damned sure not true anymore). I'm just forewarning that if we end up playing Alfar we're going to have to revise our guild statements (not code, or rules, or anything else, just statements) in order to get the respect that we deserve. If we play another race such as human or dwarf, then we're fine like we are, but Alfar WILL require adaptation.

Your honor is to my honor as his honor is to their honor and so on. Honor is subjective, loyalty to guild and allies is crystal.

SO I guess what I'm asking is what qualities do you espouse that makes you an "honorable" PvPer?

What stance would KGB need take in your opinion to lean a "little more towards honor".

Finally, what do you feel our "traditional" stance is?

Derid has adopted a stance for DFO that is almost controversially contrary to past stances the guild has adopted.

Please do keep in mind as well that I'm not criticizing, simply wishing for you to expand upon your statements so I might better understand.

Edit: Bleh! You edited and expanded upon your post while I was replying but still would be interested in your take. Thanks..

I will elaborate on this issue shortly, I see what you are saying Demoyn - but while trying to keep this post small, the perception of KGB is not the "anti" perception amongst many in the gaming community. We have been playing SB for many years, then AoC, and in both have been more of an "Honor PvP guild" than an oldskool anti guild.

Helemoto has so far put it best I think. KGB may do *mild* loreplay, to give our actions context but KGB is making no pretences of being the ultimate force of "good" from a humans peerspective in the game. (unless well, we play human maybe hehe)

There are racial subfactions as well, even the alfar have several different factions within the lore who have differing ideas on things - and DFO is designed as such to have the players take the basic lore and run with it.

That being said, I am spending an awfully good amount of typing on the subject of lore when we are not, and not trying to be a "rp guild".

But anyhow, as soon as I get a chance, I will expound my thoughts on the matter of public positioning and loreplay, and purpose and all that.

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SO I guess what I'm asking is what qualities do you espouse that makes you an "honorable" PvPer?

What stance would KGB need take in your opinion to lean a "little more towards honor".

The first question is kind of hard to answer for me. I simply tried not to be an asshole, and that seems honorable enough. Specific things, though, are harder to come by. I'd gate enemies, wouldn't loot many times if the fight was a good one, and wouldn't attack people without cause. None of those things really makes one "honorable", though.

I feel that I've cleared up the second question a bit more, but I wasn't intending to say that any member was dishonorable in the least. I was only meaning that instead of being seen as "protectors of the innocent", we moved to "honorable PvP-on" guild. Again, the actions and attitudes of the members wouldn't need to change, we'd just have to state it better.

I've read Derid's stance on approaching PvP (hell, Derid's stances have always mirrored my own, and that's why I was happy to hear he was in charge). I haven't, though read anything about the politics (with good reason, as we don't know enough about the game to commit to anything yet). I was just putting my thoughts out there because I foresaw an issue that I thought would need to be resolved for the well-being of the guild.

I came back to this guild for two reasons. The main one is because this guild was once like a family to me, and I loved it. After UO-SP, though, the reputation became that of "scrubs plus Binbs". I resented that reputation and was tired of defending it (especially since I was running out of ammo to defend with towards the end of SP). I want this guild to have the reputation that it deserves, and that's why I'm here to try and help correct it.

This, by the way, is why I was ecstatic to learn that Derid was in charge of the operation. That's why I was ecstatic to learn that JetStar is back to playing more than just messageboard warrior. That's why I was ecstatic to bring my friends to this family, and that's why I AM ecstatic to begin a new chapter in this storied guild's history. I just didn't want to enter a setup that may end up tarnishing that possibility over something as simple as a bad lore/race combo, so I felt the need to bring it up. No complaining and no hidden messages. Nothing more and nothing less.

I have to comment here. First of all, I have slowely been re-writing the rules to exclude the "Anti" image. I do encourage us to be "honorable". What is honorable? Being cool instead of a tool.

Personally I dont just try and slaughter anyone I see. If you are "Cool" then I am cool. If you treat me with respect, I show it in return.

My favorite thing to do is to clown "Tools" and "Fools". People who play dirty, talk shit, act like asses, etc are my favorite enemies. Does that make us "Good"? Well maybe. To me it makes us honorable.

There are so many "Tools" and "Fools" out there, we always have plenty of targets.

Then there is the territory / spwan / resource questions. I will fight to take and defend these freely, showing honor in PVP and conduct. It is stricty "Business". I will not take these from a declared ally, but anyone else is open game. We might warn them kindly if we have superior numbers / skill, or if not, maybe suprise attack. Remember this is only "Business"

To me, running around trying to kill everyone and everything is lame. Pick your battles, and most importantly, if you act honorably, you attract people that act the same way.

Thats how I see it.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to criticize and didn't think you were referencing anyone or anything currently. I just thought the honor you were seeking matched up to the play style I've witnessed from most KGB since I started playing and I think it does now that you elaborated.

I can see where it might cause us to work a little harder to demonstrate our guild ethics if we go with an "evil" race but ultimately imo it'll come down to what we do rather than what race we are that will determine most interactions.

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SO I guess what I'm asking is what qualities do you espouse that makes you an "honorable" PvPer?

What stance would KGB need take in your opinion to lean a "little more towards honor".

The first question is kind of hard to answer for me. I simply tried not to be an asshole, and that seems honorable enough. Specific things, though, are harder to come by. I'd gate enemies, wouldn't loot many times if the fight was a good one, and wouldn't attack people without cause. None of those things really makes one "honorable", though.

I feel that I've cleared up the second question a bit more, but I wasn't intending to say that any member was dishonorable in the least. I was only meaning that instead of being seen as "protectors of the innocent", we moved to "honorable PvP-on" guild. Again, the actions and attitudes of the members wouldn't need to change, we'd just have to state it better.

I've read Derid's stance on approaching PvP (hell, Derid's stances have always mirrored my own, and that's why I was happy to hear he was in charge). I haven't, though read anything about the politics (with good reason, as we don't know enough about the game to commit to anything yet). I was just putting my thoughts out there because I foresaw an issue that I thought would need to be resolved for the well-being of the guild.

I came back to this guild for two reasons. The main one is because this guild was once like a family to me, and I loved it. After UO-SP, though, the reputation became that of "scrubs plus Binbs". I resented that reputation and was tired of defending it (especially since I was running out of ammo to defend with towards the end of SP). I want this guild to have the reputation that it deserves, and that's why I'm here to try and help correct it.

This, by the way, is why I was ecstatic to learn that Derid was in charge of the operation. That's why I was ecstatic to learn that JetStar is back to playing more than just messageboard warrior. That's why I was ecstatic to bring my friends to this family, and that's why I AM ecstatic to begin a new chapter in this storied guild's history. I just didn't want to enter a setup that may end up tarnishing that possibility over something as simple as a bad lore/race combo, so I felt the need to bring it up. No complaining and no hidden messages. Nothing more and nothing less.

What is this "Lore" that you speak of. Is this a new flavor of potato chip.

"What is this "Lore" that you speak of. Is this a new flavor of potato chip. "

No, its the pretty pic on the bag.

There's nothing wrong with being honorable, but, especially with a Hardcore PvP game, you have to distinguish between "buisness" and acting "honorable".

You can still play "Conquest" style while keeping an "honorable" stance toward other people. Besides, War is War, and others won't have the compunction to start stuff up. In a game like Darkfall, like it was in SB, honorable always meant not whimping out when you face a challenge (aka a uber-skilled guild), getting back up when you lose your city, and not running your mouth constantly like a 11 year old wow player.

As much as I want to embrace the old days, especially in UO when RP wasn't as a stigma as it is today, we can't go back. In Darkfall, make no mistake, there's A LOT of guilds that hate us from Shadowbane, and an equal amount that like us.

When we start to own it up on the battlefield, we'll make enemies faster than you can say, "Aqua Teen Hunger Force," and they'll start flaming more than you can't believe. That's the price of sucess in an Open PvP game. It's really unavoidable, the best we can do is act honorably among the standards we set for ourselves, and not kill ourselves to be the "nice guy" in every situation.

I'm sure everyone knows the difference between honorable and dastardly. We all know "good" is a perspective. There is no axiom to which "good" is measured in an MMO. Unless by good you mean great, which is meaning you have the skills to make the kills.

With that said.. I'd like to make a statement about guild alliances. It's something we encountered in AOC--if an ally is monopolizing the resources, such as nearby spawns, thereby causing us harm, and they refuse to allow our members access to the action by allowing us in their groups. I'm not sure that is a healthy alliance. I am of course referring to UDA in AOC when they had control of basically every spawn in our stronghold zone and for the most part, would not add our guys.

In this situation, the honorable part would not be whether or not to attack them, but whether or not we give them an opportunity to get on board with the alliance and share in everyone's best interest before we decide to attack. That is honor, not playing doormat for the sake of an alliance that ultimately chokes us out. That sort of alliance is a one sided alliance where the other guild benefits from our manpower. These games are combat oriented, therefore, this sort of militial stance must be taken.

PK and Anti is a child's concept, far too simplistic for today's games.

I like the way Jetstar is moving things.

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PK and Anti is a child's concept, far too simplistic for today's games.

That's what I've been saying for the past 4 years or so. Black and White, Blue and Red...there really is no true duality in kingdom warfare - Just who's on your side, who's neutral, who's against you, and who may or may not be doing the "dirty" work. Most sides refer to themselves as "the good guys" but what makes them virtuous or honorable? Heroism means taking great risks for the welfare of your people and those who believe in aiding others. Your actions indicate your level of "honor". However, where is the line drawn? We all know that some asshats in UO had blue names above their heads...

There are three types of Cowboys - You've got the outright Criminal, then you have John Wayne, and then....then you've got Clint Eastwood. The first isn't really an option, but think of the possibilities if KGB shifts from the mentality of John Wayne to Clint Eastwood...

We are going to have to trust our membership and leadership to make the tough calls in the field.

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There are three types of Cowboys

There are two kinds of spurs, my friend; those that come in through the door, and those that come in through the window.

You forgot the third pair:

those that are laying in your bed, along with the horsehead.