http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyNlJUKgug&sns=em


Im a teacher, so i speak with Absolute Moral Authority on this subject: public sector unions must be destroyed.
even corporations dont force their members to political campaigns.

My personal view on this issue is that Teaching in America failing our country. Whatever reasons are, it is now simply storing kids for a number of years instead of identifying and cultivating leaders of tomorrow.

I suspect, but don't know for sure, that teachers unions are part of the problem. I also suspect that regulations, specifically focus on special needs and so on (it is VERY expensive, we simply cannot afford all of the programs) to detriment of regular education is a contributing factor.

My kids will go to a private school. Boarding school if my residence location doesn't permit commute. It is that important.

Holy flying spaghetti monster!! Sinij, quick, change your password or find the conservative who is hiding in your house, using your computer! :)

I am actually much more conservative on fiscal issues than any of you would give me a credit for, mostly I am fiscally conservative socially liberal person. I also happen to be very evidence-based in my fiscal conservatism, so this outright disqualifies me from agreeing with the current crop of GOP and current brand of cut-taxes-and-spend spendthrifts.

Lets not turn this thread into frothing about keynesianism and stick to the topic - teachers and teachers uninions.

:( but I do so enjoy frothing over Keynesian policies.

Ha, I knew we were more alike then you are willing to let on. You go Brother Sinij.

We all have our vices that we do behind closed doors.

you all have no idea
the number if kids being identified as special ed has exploded due to broadening of the definitions
the emphasis on high stakes tests has destroyed the arts, music, athletics, clubs, pe, shop classes to the point of extinction
everyone is forced into a college-prep schedule to feed the beast of higher education, when only 22% of all jobs require a 4 year degree
and, on a political note, the vast influx of ignorant foreigners into my state (california) is wrecking the entire system.
50% of uc students (my wife teaches at one) need remediation
the teachers know- my kids go to private school and teachers' kids are far overrepresented in private school

the smart kids are the ones that suffer the most, they are bored. their attitude sucks and we lose them forever
the kids who arent smart, that could have really benefitted and learned trades from shop and art classes just drop out. more losses to society

i can tell you that the amount of waste is appalling. most of it is due to the people at the state level handing down ridiculous directives. when i talk about petty bureaucrats, shiftless sincures, and regulation, try to understand that a lot of my opinions have been shaped by 14 years in this business.

the union is responsible for almost all of this, directly or indirectly because they wield so much power in this state.

just be aware, sinij, that the school your kids go to will almost certainly be religious, if its private. i suspect your opinions will change once you have contact with normal people.

You hit the nail on the head.

The unions would cry, but I like Ron Pauls idea of doing away with the department of education, and letting states take care of the education.

This is not my strong topic, but I always thought the Department of Education could maintain and enforce standards that the states could meet in any way they chose.

The scary thing to me is when a state goes off the deep end and starts to re-write history as recently happened in the Texas.

In my childhood, they painted Christopher Columbus as hero savior, when in reality he was a brutal tyrant. At least offer both sides and let folks decide for themselves.

i dont view colombus as a brutal tyrant in the context of his times. by our standards, of course.

im curious; how do you decide whether both sides should be taught (colombus) or not (evolution)?

please dont say one is provable. i just want to know what criteria you use to determine it

In my opinion, creationism is not science. The basics of evolution are proven scientific facts. If someone can prove that God exists, then I believe it should be taught. We can prove survival of the fittest, and cellular mutation.

That is where I draw the line.

And that's the problem, do you really think it's easier to change a standard or fix a problem with someone in Washington? Rather than someone that's in state and has better knowledge of a situation and has closer ties? You cut out a middle man. It's far easier to change something that's enforced locally than one that is enforced federally. You seem to think the Federal Government is the way to fix everything.

I think if it weren't FOR the people there wouldn't be any Government. You seem to think if it weren't for the Government there wouldn't be any people. Think about that one!

Frankly as I said, I just dont trust some states to stick with the founding ideals of this country and the constitution. I would be afraid that the individual states would start teaching to much religion. For instance, Utah would be all Mormon in my opinion, and in my opinion, public schools should offer a standard education.

If the States did things that were unconstitutional then the FedGov can always reign them in. There is a huge difference between FedGov that acts as a simple check on the States to keep them within the confines of Constitutional Law, and a FedGov that feels the need to centrally manage and control.

Besides that, if you don't like the schools in the state where you live, you can always leave. People move to get to better schools all the time.

But the bigger picture is that if the states are the ones making the educational rules, then the citizens of those states should logically have much more input into those rules than they have currently.

Yes, input like MORE BIBLE LESS SCIENCE.

No, "leave it if you don't like it" is not a good argument. Where would be our founding fathers if they followed your advice?

While I'm no teacher, my other half was one for sixteen years. ( Special Education prek - 5th grade )

As a result, I have some unique insights on the issue and, of course, some opinions :D

For starters, I can fully understand the Chicago strike. Just one of the reasons would make me quit the entire field and look elsewhere for a job.

That reason being teacher pay being tied to student performance on standardized tests. Bad, Bad, BAD idea all the way around. Why, I hear you ask ?

Easy. Because not all schools are equal. You can't standardize the tests without dumbing them down to the least common denominator. Not really the kids ( or the teachers ) fault really, some schools are not financially capable of providing the same level ( or even access to ) the same subjects. Eg, the rural school in the middle of nowhere is not going to have the same operational budget as richer regions will. How on Earth can you possibly expect the kids to perform the same on a standardized test if they don't even get exposure to the same information ?

Because, lets face it, some kids just flat out do not give a shit about school. These same !give-a-shits are lumped together in the same classrooms as those that do. As a result, they drag the entire class down with them. It only takes a single disruptive idiot to ruin it for everyone.

Go ahead, try to kick them out of class.

The district will get hit with a lawsuit so fast your head will simply spin right off. Districts know lawsuits costs $$$ so they usually do anything they can to avoid them. Including telling said teacher of said !not-give-a-shit student to " deal with it ".

It's sad really.


Now, lets talk about this whole " It's the teachers fault my little angel can't pass the test " issue.

No. It isn't. You can place blame in two places here, but the teachers are not an option.

First one is at the district level. These are the folks who come up with the curriculum the teachers will be required to follow. Teachers do NOT get to decide what they're going to teach, it's dictated to them.

Since federal money is tied into student performance on the aforementioned standardized tests, guess what the curriculum is tailored to ? Yup, teaching the test. It's in their best interests the kiddos do well on the test because it equates to more money for the district. Care to guess why so many are getting caught cheating on these tests these days ? Money is a damned powerful motivator.

The other potential problem area is the lovely little angels themselves. The kids. Like I said before. Some really do not give a shit about their education. Since the teachers have no say-so in what students they teach, the more kids that don't give a damn equates to lower teacher pay. This leads to simply being unable to find teachers to teach at all in certain regions of the country where the majority of kiddos don't give two shits about anything. They'll all fight for the nicer districts and better student populations.

Some teachers try a hybrid approach to teach. Trying their damdest to reach the ones that want to learn while getting the material out there for the rest and ignoring the idiots who are destined to flip burgers forever. Of course, when burger-flipper jr fails the standardized tests, it MUST be the teachers fault. Because everyone knows that all children are geniuses and will all grow up to be doctors, lawyers and the like. :|

I assure you it isn't the teachers decision to spend 100 MILLION dollars to update the GD Football Stadium, Sports Complex and the like. Then the district has the BALLS to ask for a tax increase so they can build ( insert token think of the children program here ).

Assholes. :|

Hell, where I live the High School retention rate is around the fifty percent ( 50% ) mark. Nearly one HALF of the kids that start High School don't even finish. We do have one snazzy ass brand new football stadium though :|

The union here in Texas is relatively useless. To be honest, education as a career is not recommended for anyone if you want my opinion as to where it's headed. My other half just flat gave it up. Not worth it anymore. Not at all.

She is now back in college doing the BSN program ( BA Nursing ). She gets to sit in class with the recent high school grads who look like deer in the headlights in most of her classes. Folks turning in test scores of 12 and 32 ( that's a f*cking TWELVE out of a hundred ) in Micro-Biology. According to her, most of her classes are the same. The only ones who do well are foreign students, older students, or the rare ones who understand what it takes to actually pass the class.

I hate to say this but, unless a serious change happens to the American Public Education system, the next generation of graduates will go on record as the least educated in history.

Um, they left the British empire...

Chuckle.

Thems fight'n words here in the Bible Belt :D

If the folks around me knew my views on religion, they would show up at my door with torches and pitchforks.

The few that HAVE figured out my stance on it always have the same opening argument " You think I'm stupid for believing in ( insert magical all powerful entity here ) don't you ? "

My thoughts are then " Awww hell. . . . here we go "

:D

I got to disagree about rural schools not having access to the information being avaible. The public school where my kids go wins awards every year for being one the best not only in Texas, but also in the country. To me its not the quanity of education but the quality of the education. Its also parents being invloled. Parents double checking home work. Parents makeing themselves avaible to not only their childeren but also to the teachers.

I would also like to add we dont have a football program. Every year it gets brought up, and every year it gets voted down. We have advance computer labs, a great libary, heck we even donate books to it(choose your own adventure books). The high school kids can take collage classes their jr and sr years and get credit for both collage and high school.

And your right, not every school is equal.

THIS