A DF follower recently posted an article on WarCry regarding the chat rooms that MMOs have become...
http://df.warcry.com/news/view/72765-Darius-Black-Role-Playing-TodayHe's hoping and I as well, that DF will have the immersion needed to foster a role playing player base like UO did. I remember in UO we had to actually have a KOS list that separated enemies from RP enemies. On the one hand you had RPK guilds like "Krypt K33per5" on our KOS list and then we had RP evil guilds like Shadowclan orcs on our KOS list. Both were enemies but Shadowclan we treated with respect and helped their events be popular. The RPKers we'd loot to the bone and kill them until they logged out crying and cancelling their accounts.
KGB also use to be considered a casual role playing guild. A true RP guild would scoff at that since we used RL lingo way too often but "normal" guilds definitely would make fun of us from time to time for how we pretended to be Knights. We've almost completely grown away from our RPing side though which saddens me. I hope in AoC and DF we can regain that carefree side. I use to say "Aye" so much that I started using the word IRL without meaning to, which always led to someone calling me weird.
The worst thing that could happen is for us to just become another large guild. It's our laws and "protect the innocent" rules that separate us. Roleplaying can bring a guild together and make playing the game all the more fun. I'm not talking about us only speaking in-character or using old english words only but doing guild events like parades through town, town hall meetings, being the honor guard for in-game marriages or silly things like that which we used to do in UO would be nice to see again.
Well I think out structure actually supports the RP side, we just havent had a chance to prove it. In UO there was alot of "Light" RPing. I mean I presided over weddings, had sit downs with other organizations, and mock Wars.
I am not the kind to say Thee and Aye, but I can definately get into the RP politics.
I remember everyone lining up in SB so Jet and Herog could have a meeting in our Wizards Tower... :P That was fun.
p.s. Aye Aye Cap'n Raekwon.. ze bucket of babies have been thrown overboard as you commanded. Now where's my rum?
I was wondering why there isn't a casual RP section here on the oracle?
Darkfall being a full PvP game wont really have things like "PK" and "anti-PK". There wont be any "innocents" just different player factions and empires, and wanna-be empire, with some random people looking for a guild, vying with other player factions/empires/guilds.
Given the nature, following, and promotion of the game I doubt many random people will just wander in wanting to do their own peacefull thing TBH.
Light RPing Honorable Knights is great, but I wouldnt get to set on the PK/Anti mindset. I just dont think it will apply. I also dont see much in the way of RP coming down the pipe either. If there is, it will likely be localized to one small part of the world where the "RP folks" go, and do their own thing.
Most large scale guild politics happen in chat channels or Vent these days.
But hey I could be wrong, maybe DFO will bring out the RP in people. But TBH I think it will be closer to SB mentality.
I think it's a long shot, but it could definitely be there. We would have to be fairly selfless to make an impact on an entire server. For instance, we would take our navy and escort merchant ships for little or no charge, actively hunt pirates, keeping the seas clean in general, it would be a BIG job, but I think we could manage it. Perhaps the game will allow guilds to share player built cities, which would be ultra cool IMO. There would be tons of "good guy" merchants all over the place in a thriving city with the knights and warriors of all of the "good guy" guilds romping around protecting each other... In short, it would immediately send the game into server wars, 1 force against the other.
Sorry, but from the perspective of someone who loves RP and PVP, I'd have to say that in a MMO environment, RP will take a dive where PVP is concerned every time. NOT because there aren't those who don't immerse themselves into the game environment while also being good at PVP. It's because there are entirely too many Focused Power Gamers out there who could give a shit less about RP. They'll simply do whatever it takes to get to the top, by number crunching and throwing any idea that the environment they're in is another world, to the wayside. Hell, the whole "L33t speak" bullshit says it all...So in order to beat those people, those who RP while also PVPing eventually sacrifice playing characters they like for whatever character types can own in battle. Machiavellian principles 4tw in today's gaming...
I'd say that a better environment for RP + PVP is a Multiplayer game, where there are no more than 100 players on a server and they'd have to go through a short interview process to figure out if they fit the bill for keeping the lore of the world intact without exploiting everything in sight.
I think the best bet for KGB to maintain a real Role Playing environment with PVP and enemies to host their own game server of emulated games out there. Anything else would require a lot of sacrifice.
I hope I'm wrong about all of the above, but I doubt it. Just ask DCengr. He's about as much Power gamer as you get...
they should just not allow people to use numbers or most of the symbols on the keyboard in chat to solve the "1337 5p34|<" issue, rofl.
All in all, I think that if everyone in the guild decided they wanted to do it and we got together with other anti-RPK guilds before release and had predefined alliances to immediately counter the RPK scene and bring order to the server we could push the kiddies off our server and promote larger guilds with similar intentions (but from the evil side) to play on our server. I don't think it would be too difficult to get a hold of guilds like Shadowclan and arrange to play on the same server as them at release. That way we could earn the title of "most fun server to PVP on" or "most mature server". I'd be willing to take the initiative to contact some of these guilds if people can give me a list of honorable guilds they've dealt with in the past, both "good" and "evil".
DFO should push for more violence and sexual content to give it a Mature rating. While this won't eliminate all the kiddies, it will certainly curtail their numbers for the better.
Just to make sure no one is getting me wrong here, I'm certainly not the true roleplayer type and never will be nor would I want KGB to be. At best we could make a branch of KGB to be it's RPing side like Vydor made during Shadowbane.
However, examples of what I am referring to would be like the political meetings Jet and Herog had in person in game. They could have simply meet up in Vent and it would be forgotten as soon as it was over. However since they RP'd it, it became an event and remembered years after... and something we could have actually put in our now inactive KGB Herald. And this was in Shadowbane, a game as Derid put it- and I agree- was just all about powergaming. So I see it possible to have some great RP type events even while we powergame as long as Darkfall has the complexity and immersion needed.
Things I'd like to see in DF and maybe in AoC as well:
* Reactivation of the KGB herald
* Political roleplaying - (townhall meetings and each guild presenting their numbers by getting them to all show up in uniform colors.)
* Regaining the image as the "good guys" so we're asked to come to fluff roleplaying events like marriages - as gay as they may be at times - someone has to protect those sheep in a game like DF that will be full of wolves/powergamers. In fact it would be a reflection of how well of a job KGB is doing based on the number of "innocents", crafers and RP types that lived around our kingdom. In a cruel brutal world only the wolves survive but if within the realm of the KGB empire little crafter towns thrive and semi-gay role playing events like in game marriages and flea-markets actually occur then it shows that our army is so mighty that we can make our lands so safe that even sheep can stroll around in.
Something that really helps this be possible is that in DF you take control of a clan stone which is like a Tree of Life from Shadowbane. This clan stone protects all of your "kingdom" from random destruction unlike a Tree of Life which only protected a few buildings. A kingdom in DF will be a large area of land and the devs have said more than one town can be built inside a kingdom. So KGB may have it's city built directly around the clan stone but since the stone protects the whole kingdom, others could build small towns outside of our city, say a mile away by a mountain side in our kingdom that has ore in it. These towns could be made up of purely non-KGB people if we wanted to allow it... they'd simply craft and sell their goods and then pay us a monthly rent. Innocents that we'd protect and also we'd enforce rules on them, like that we'll kick them out if they try to start wars with neighbors. If one of these little towns grows enough to form it's own sub guild and create its own army we could let them in as a true part of the KGB empire with military rights then as well.
There are some nice thoughts there. But lets not put the cart before the horse. Our primary focus will need to be getting it done on the field I'm afraid or else all those nice little extras become moot.
Now, I am sure you realize this as much as I do, but I dont want the overall mentality of KGB to slip into a dreamland of time consuming RPish events and helping old ladies cross the street without the full understanding that for anything like that to be even somewhat viable, we are going to have to rise as a power first, and stake out claims with blood.
Also, there is no use protecting those who cannot protect themselves. Even though it is an admirable goal, even if we are able to do so, it will end up hurting both us and them. Its not about failing to "meet the goals of the white knight" in my book, its the simple fact that if we are all thats protecting/propping a group up, eventually our commitments will surpass our ability. In that case, the tenants would also get swept away, by leaner, more focused opponents.
Happens in EvE all the time. The most successfull alliances with the most prosperous, loyal and happiest "tenants" are , by no accident, also the most coldly efficient, and of course militarily coordinated. Tenants that cannot pull their own weight typically have no place. This works for DFO though, as I am anticipating a very very very tiny population of pure carebears. In a game like DFO, if theyre not at least in the militia groups fighting for their turf, theyre on their alts fighting against you.
But in any case, before that type of talk on how to manage an "empire" even really gets started, and most especially before we start discussing frills, I think we need to wait for the game to launch, and prove our ability to put those kinds of options on the table period.
This post isnt even directly aimed at you Raek, I just dont want people with less experience with true territorial conflict games to get the wrong ideas on what a game like that is like before we even get to the starting gate.
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However, examples of what I am referring to would be like the political meetings Jet and Herog had in person in game. They could have simply meet up in Vent and it would be forgotten as soon as it was over.
Did Jet behead Herog? I hope so. He's on my top 5 most wanted-to-kill list, even if I have to create a stealth alt and go Machiavellian to do it.
I'm not sure what happened to him but early on Jet actually had the KGB army stand in uniform for the KoS brass to view inside our city walls. Looking back it was silly since they ended up grinding us into the ground over and over again but atleast at first we had some fun RPing going on.
Derid: I hear you bro. I'm just dreaming out loud because this guy's article got me to thinking... by time beta starts this thread/post will be long forgotten. We could all agree to wear nothing but pink now and it wouldn't matter because once beta starts, that's when decisions will actually be made!
I'm open to RP.
In the arc of player maturity (NOT age maturity) all types--explorer, achiever, killer, etc--it all ends in socializing.
Plus, RP provides another way to immerse players into a game and guild--which is a good thing. There's nothing that says pvp and rp are mutually exclusive.
I agree Val. Its actually a little known fact that I RPed in UO. I didnt talk funny or anything, or even align myself with in-game factions much. But I did play a "character" that had a certain set personality, and acted in a specific fashion according to its personality.
So basically noone ever knew I was RPing, but to a degree, I was. Of course I came to UO from the origional NWN on AOL, and remember being suprised that noone RPed, and that UO players thought RP was, in fact, talking funny. Real RP is impossible, because the percentile of ppl in mass-market games who is even capable of understandng appropriate RP IS, is so marginal.
Plus real RP is something that happens on a player level, not a group level. When groups of RP-players get together, you can get a cool group. When a group says "here come we are RP" you get a costume party.
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We could all agree to wear nothing but pink now
You mean like my shammy?
The thing that has done the most to kill role playing in MMOs is the endless xp/loot grind that has come to dominate nearly every MMO since UO. People don't have time or the inclination to do the RP activities that Raek mentions because of the need to grind out that next precious level.
UO was great because you could roll up a character, and in an evening, get to the point where you could roll with gang. Your 'toon was by no means done, but at 80 or 90 skill points (out of 100), which you could get in an evening, you were competant. Every point in addition on the way to GM at 100 was better, of course, but it wasn't like the unbridgable gulf that exists in leveling MMOs for character who differ in only a few levels.
The combination of level inequities and uber gear just kills playability, in my opinion.
Exactly to the point Owain... never played UO but I agree that the "grind" kills MMO's. It is also bad in that if in the group you have some level differences that will greatly affect the "award" for members of the group. I understand they do that so that a high level player does not run interference all the time for his buds... but even a few levels make it tough... hence the stable of level buddies everyone seems to have lying around...
Some things on the RP front:
The best times in gaming I ever had was UO and SB. KGB is built on this system. Out titles, our armed forces, all of this is designed on a "Light RP" basis.
I will never forget our entire guild lined up in perfect formation as I had a conference with COS leadership.
BY THE WAY RAEK! It is the KGB Sentinel, and it is alive and well here on the Oracle.
I am looking forward to this in DFO or Conan or whatever. Just mindless PVP never attracted me. I am in it all for the politics, war, and inter guild relations.
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I agree Val. Its actually a little known fact that I RPed in UO. I didnt talk funny or anything, or even align myself with in-game factions much. But I did play a "character" that had a certain set personality, and acted in a specific fashion according to its personality.
So basically noone ever knew I was RPing, but to a degree, I was. Of course I came to UO from the origional NWN on AOL, and remember being suprised that noone RPed, and that UO players thought RP was, in fact, talking funny. Real RP is impossible, because the percentile of ppl in mass-market games who is even capable of understandng appropriate RP IS, is so marginal.
Plus real RP is something that happens on a player level, not a group level. When groups of RP-players get together, you can get a cool group. When a group says "here come we are RP" you get a costume party.
That's how I am with my Crimthan character. His prime weapon is the polearm, and he tends to wear medium armor and is more of an offensive warrior. Whenever I play him, I have certain goals in mind for what weapons/gear I want and the moves I utilize in combat. The latter usually dictates the class I choose for Crim. You'll never see Crim as a caster, healer, etc. In fact, there are certain class spheres I play, and when I play them, there is usually a specific name assigned to the individual foci.
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The thing that has done the most to kill role playing in MMOs is the endless xp/loot grind that has come to dominate nearly every MMO since UO. People don't have time or the inclination to do the RP activities that Raek mentions because of the need to grind out that next precious level.
UO was great because you could roll up a character, and in an evening, get to the point where you could roll with gang. Your 'toon was by no means done, but at 80 or 90 skill points (out of 100), which you could get in an evening, you were competant. Every point in addition on the way to GM at 100 was better, of course, but it wasn't like the unbridgable gulf that exists in leveling MMOs for character who differ in only a few levels.
The combination of level inequities and uber gear just kills playability, in my opinion.
Amen.
A quick side topic, if any of you haven't read through the DF website in awhile, they've done some minor updates here and there. Some new pics in the race section, a couple of new monster types added with pics. As Taos put it, giving the current website a face lift is their current plan but probably after beta starts and is well on its way they plan to create a whole new web site "worthy to display DF on."
http://www.darkfallonline.com/community/Good to know they plan on making a much more complex homesite. It needs to have atleast all of the same features the DAOC web site had like stat pages, character profile look up, guild rankings and look ups etc, as well as region maps of who owns what. If only Darkfall had stock we could buy into, i'd buy it and then bet it on the guess that DF will have a very well put together web site with a plethera of features like mentioned above.