That's why nothing more than "fonctions régaliennes" (justice, army, diplomacy) should be given to any elected body representing more than 50 people.

You don't want officials to abuse their power or for lobbys to profit from it ? Don't give them this power. And don't ever do like socialist countries : every citizen, even after jail-time has a right to defend its life and property through use of weapons. Every citizen, whatever shit they're saying has a right to say it.

While I think this is terrible legislation I did about 30 seconds of research and found that they have a piano for every child in the Michigan schools. No wonder they don't have any money, they are too busy spending it on things that used to be extra curricular activities. Maybe if parents would start being parents and stop letting the schools raise their children the state wouldn't be going broke. Obviously that is no excuse for this kind of legislation and it should be repealed immediately, but I noticed that the libs who are crying about it are claiming that the capitolists have been plotting this for years, but its the libs who are the ones who wanted to spend the money on things like $5,000 keyboards for each child...

Politics Sux

Big brother is in chatge now in Michigan

http://dscc.me/cMiC

Why am I not surprised that you're a screaming lib Salochin?

Medicare and Medicaid need to be abolished along with Social Security. None of these plans were designed, nor intended to last forever. Just like any other ponzi scheme, they will eventually fall apart and we're seeing that start to happen now. The problem is that you're being lied to and told "noooo, there's no problem. We have plenty of money." When the reality is that our country is $14.276 Trillion in debt. Our income is $2.179 Trillion per year and our spending is $3.522 Trillion. It's pretty simple math to figure out that each year we're generating negative $1.343 Trillion, or $1.343 Trillion more in debt(which does not include the $3.571 Trillion in interest payments that we won't be able to make because we don't have any money). The debt isn't getting any smaller and our creditors are getting tired of not being paid.

Now, $1.514 Trillion of that spending each year is Medicare/Medicaid and Soc. Security. There is no program that even comes close to rivaling these for potential to cut and get our budget issues under control.

I agree we need to saxe $$, but why don't the republicans stop giving the rich tax breaks, close the tax loop holes stop all the war they seem to love, oh ya they love killing more than helping. It is unfair the programs like that keep getting attacked, do you like the rights they stripped from unions in WI? How about if a baby is born with a disability they kill it, before it can grow up & be supported by your tax $$. Hey we don't need another none worker bee living of us do we!!! I am not gonna sit here & put all republicans are wrong & all democrats are right, but it seems when it is a Republican majority or Republican president, things get screwed up, look what happened when Bush was pres. & then he got voted in again to do more damage!!!! With Clinton there was a surplus & look what Bush did, if he worked for a company he would have been fired!!!

@Salohcin

/begin
LOL
/end

Really?

How do you expect our old folks that paid into this for most of their careers to get health care?

Amazing. Why not park half of our aircraft carriers?

The 2009 U.S. military budget accounts for approximately 40% of global arms spending and is over six times larger than the military budget of China (compared at the nominal US dollar / Renminbi rate, not the PPP rate). The United States and its close allies are responsible for two-thirds to three-quarters of the world's military spending (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority).

The U.S. Department of Defense budget accounted in fiscal year 2010 for about 19% of the United States federal budgeted expenditures and 28% of estimated tax revenues. Including non-DOD expenditures, defense spending was approximately 28–38% of budgeted expenditures and 42–57% of estimated tax revenues. According to the Congressional Budget Office, defense spending grew 9% annually on average from fiscal year 2000–2009.

I would rather cut military than taking care of old people you fucking barbarians.

Lol you fucking barbarians rofl, they're probably thinking why care for the old when they are just going to die anyhow

Quite frankly we need to call shenanigans and re-roll our Corp. Govt.

/agree totally

I agree with Jet. But, not in the way you think. I think it's time we quit subusdizing the defense of Europe. Thats why they can afford all the health care plans and pensions pans they enjoy because they don't have to spend as much on defense because we're there.
Second we should require that a company that wants to sell products in the US should be required to produce a certian percent of that product here. (bring back jobs and tax revenue). Other countries including the one where almost everything in America is made, China, have those laws.
I also think the space program should have been turned over to private business a long time ago(i.e. NASA). Think how much money that we could save. Who benefits from it anyway, well we all do in the end, but, who makes a profit off it, not you and I.
If you did these three things you would increase revenue and decrease spending enough to have such a huge surplus that we could reinvest in America's future and educate people provide healthcare that works and put people back to work. Damn am I starting to sound like a liberal. Well I'm not, just somethings just make good sense

Public perception of the NASA budget is very different from reality and has been the subject of controversy since the agency's creation. A 1997 poll reported that Americans had an average estimate of 20% for NASA's share of the federal budget, very different from the actual 0.5% to under 1% that has been maintained throughout the late 90's and first decade of the 2000s

Don't commercialize space yet. We are learning sooooo much.

I can't agree on that : the majority of european nations with big healthcare and pension plans can't already pay for it. See how public debts is getting crazy in here. Greece and Iceland did not fail for the lulz. Portugal, Ireland and Spain are not the next for nothing. And Italy, the UK and France will follow fast.

Now, the armies of a country should not be fucking used to mess in any other country if not attacked first (Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya now).
My stance on government is simple :
- an army to defend your citizen against other countries
- a diplomatic corp to not have to use the army
- police and justice system so citizen don't fuck themselves

Nothing more. No state pensions, healthcare, education and all other shit you can think of.

Why do they want to get rid of Medicaid? Just change a few things that waste $$, in Illinois a about a year ago, maybe they still do, not sure, they send you a paper every month. So the amount of people on Medicaid each get a slip of paper, so their is cost of paper+ink+printing+mailing them=a lot of wasted $$. Why not just give them a plastic card that as long as they are on Medicaid is good. In New York there is 2 plans for Medicaid, why? What can be the difference? Just have 1 plan.

You could have public health care, here is how.

Create a Nationalized regulated healthcare system in which every single legal domestic citizen is given a health card.

Then remove the need for Private or Public businesses from having to provide any health care at all as part of an employee's compensation.

Change the Private and Public business tax laws to be simple and fair.

Regulate with auditors the 99% payment of all business taxes, just like is levied on private citizens currently.

Problems solved.

Next Issue..... Sustainable Budget

They should do a flat tax also, that could save $$ cause they wouldn't have to redo the tax laws every year. Plus the IRS wouldn't have to print how many is it, 10 different tax forms a year?

You left out the incentive part. If government is paying for healthcare you can bet your ass that there will be price caps. If that's the case then what incentive is there for a person to work hard through 8 years of medical school only to come out on the other side with a government job? Some folks will do it because they really want to help others, but most of the really smart folks (those who make the amazing break throughs) would put their minds to work in a field that will compensate them for their efforts.

With this I agree but not for Salochin's reasons. Printing forms is not the issue here. The simple fact is that with a flat tax the lootholes that currently are exploited by those folks with enough money, or who know the right people (like GE), would disappear. I'm sure folks would be able to come up with other ways to avoid taxes, but since the tax law would be much simpler it would be much easier for those morons at the IRS to figure out when someone is cheating. Additionally, we wouldn't need one IRS agent for every 100 people in the country so you could cut the size of that department by half at least.
Oh, no, those poor government workers would be out of a job. They can find one in the private sector with all of the jobs that would be created by the "evil corporations" who all of a sudden have much more money, since they don't have to pay tax lawyers, pay less in taxes than before, and have the confidence to be able to invest more in their businesses (thus creating jobs) since they don't have to worry about how to shelter their money from whatever crazy tax scheme congress is going to come up with next year.

To Jet's point, it is not now, nor has it ever been the responsibility of the government to make sure you have healthcare, food, shelter or anything other than the freedom to persue your desires. The end result of any of these programs is more and more people who aren't willing to get off their lazy asses and go do something to better their lives. Drakiis may whine like there is no tomorrow, but that man is out busting his ass daily at a shitty job to try to get back on his feet and pull himself up by his bootstraps. I would much rather give money to help some one like that than I would pay for some woman to sit at home and pop out kids that she knows the government will give her a check for, or for folks who have "cronic fatigue" (in the south we call that fucking lazy) and as such are awarded a nice free check from the government because they are "disabled." It makes we want to climb into a bell tower and start laying down the law. The rediculousness that we've allowed our government to perpetrate on us under the guise of helping the populace is nothing more than an opportunity for slimy politicians (on boths sides) to buy votes. To hell with them all. My goal from the last election on out is to vote out whoever is in office. I would much rather NOTHING get done in Washington than for the endless parade of lying, cheating, scumbags to continue to flaunt thier waste of my money.

And if I have to watch one more speech from Nancy (before she hops on the jet that I'm paying for to fly home for the weekend) about how we're going to kill all the old people I'm just going to scream. Maybe if she used some of the money that has made her plastic surgeon wealthy to contribute to some good charities there'd be fewer old people who "would have to eat dog food."

I tip my hat to you good sir, thanks vote of confidence noel it means a lot to me

A-Fucking-Men..

Well lets hope that Drakiis never gets sick, or needs health care while he is busting his ass. It would permanently bankrupt him. As someone with family members with disease, I can tell you first hand that if there was no medicare, they would be dead as they cant afford the medicine, the operations, and what it takes for them to enjoy their golden years.
They paid into social security and medicare just as I am. I expect my share when the time comes.

Your not going to get it.. Unfortunate, but I'm thinking true.

Ahem..i am already bankrupt, not officially chapter type bankruptcy but i have five whole dollars in my pocket right now which is the extent of my" savings" if you will. So a healthcare plan means nothing to me currently, even though i have paid into a health care system in the past.

For people like me its a roll of the dice when you get sick. You go in poor as the day you were born get treated and billed but attempt to qualify for finacial relief or aid to either pay your bill in full or reduce it to where you can manage it yourself, but the problem is you must first qualify for it, and then depending on the circumstances like surgery, medication, therapy, the equipment used, whether you used toilet paper while you were there etc etc they look at what you were treated for and how. If everything falls into place just right you might get that aid.

When i had my gallbladder removed i had no money that surgery had to easily be a five thousand dollar price tag, but it was enflamed and spasming it felt like a heart attack they had to work on me money or not

I then applied to three different systems while i laid up in recovery, one was a half pay the other a family martha stewart type save the children type, and the last was a I'm a rich guy leaving behind a legacy fund,

The half pay was out of the question for me and i didn't qualify anyhow as i had no money, the family type plan wanted to help but said i would have to pay in a high bracket, mostly because i was white male single no dependants not married otherwise capable, so the final plan came in and saved my bacon, the rich guys foundation paid in full. But you have to realize i was not only lucky but in the right place, the mayo clinic area is the highest institute for health care had i been in texas i doubt i would have been so fortunate

What about those who aren't lazy? The health insurance companies didn't lift a finger to provide health insurance to peopke, the was the pre-existing condition rule, if you got sick suddenly your not covered & other things I am sure. Oh & the cost, one thing the Gov. wanted to be part of health reform was buying into Medicaid, ok that sound like a good plan. No, the GOP didn't like that!!!

Oh & here is what the mob everyone knows as the Republicans/GOP is doing with the budget!!!

I'm sure I don't understand the leap of logic you used to justify the statement that insurance companies are responsible for providing health insurance. They are a business and like any other business they are there if you are willing to pay. Other than being responsible for lawful payments to participating clients, they don't owe you or anyone else anything.

Perhaps you can enlighten me?

I hope you know I will help you in any way I can brother.

Ill keep that in my front pocket like a warm sticky piece of bubble yum

I never said they are responsible for providing anything, try getting insurance with a pre-existing condition or talk to some one about fairness when they suddenly don't have coverage when they get cancer or some other horrible illness. What about those who have to pay med. bills or for medication or utility bills or food or their house or car, no I a not saying free rides for all. Have you looked at the cost of insurance? It is not affordable for everyone. Hell the Pres. wanted people to be able to buy into Medicaid, it was part of the Health Reform Bill, Republicans said no. The reason, you tell me??

We all know the health care was not going to be free Right????

You were going to have to pay for it or pay a fine for not having it.

I knew.

Actually, this right here pretty much says that you think insurance companies are responsible for taking care of people who haven't paid them anything.

I hate to break the news to you, because apparently no one ever has, but life isn't fair and you're not guaranteed anything other than that you will eventually die.

Just remember in your rage about how it's not owed to anyone that you save a little compassion for your fellow man. A few wrong bad decisions and that could be you praying for and needing a little help. However much of the problem is their own fault, I promise you they never said as a kid I want to grow up and be poor, be homeless, or be a drug addict. To those whom have made it big and lend a helping hand to the less fortunate, I salute you. But to those that think tough shit I got mine why should I help you, I think you should evaluate your soul. Capitolism without compassion is just a bunch of greedy bastards, and will collapse.

You're on the right path but you've assigned the responsibility to the wrong people. Individuals should act with compassion, not groups.

When a group attempts to act compassionately it leads to compulsory "charity," corruption, greed and the desire for power.

When an individual acts out of compassion it is laudable, good, and admirable. It leads to a sense of fulfillment, and helps others to understand the responsibility of their situations. It affords the individual the opportunity to actually help a person in need, rather than anonymously throw money at the situation via a third party, like the government. That is the definition of generosity.

If anyone has misinterpreted my words in such a way as to lead them to believe that I don't act charitably with my money, time and efforts in my personal life, then they are reading something into my words that doesn't exist there.

For many people, especially in the society we've created, it is very difficult to separate individual action from the action of the government on "behalf of the individual." If you cannot currently do this, then making the effort to see the difference is paramount if you're going to be able to read my words, and the words of other like-minded citizens of this country, without being offended or assuming that I'm heartless or uncaring. Nothing could be further from the truth and I could easily line up dozens of people to testify to that for you. Several of which are members of this community.

My efforts in threads like this one are simply to help people understand what I intuitively (or maybe as a product of my upbringing) understand. The simple fact that when charity isn't done personally it ceases to be charity. It becomes an onerous and resented task (like paying taxes). You lose all sense of responsibility for HOW your money is used for the benefit of others, and most of all you lose the sense of accomplishment and fulfillment that you gain when you personally help some one, not just to pay a bill or buy some food, but help them find a way to help themselves. It is the height of selfish conceit to assume that others are not capable of doing the things that you do to earn money. The money that affords you the opportunity to do for others what you would hope someone would do for you if you were in a bad situation. How can someone claim its charity to deprive someone of the same opportunities they have?

That is exactly what social justice programs do. They don't teach people how to improve their lives, they only teach people the lie that something can be had for nothing. That you're owed something simply for being born. If someone is taught that from birth, what incentive will they ever have to achieve something greater than they are? What will motivate them to want to be better? What if one of those ghetto kids would have cured cancer, but because he never had to work for anything in his life, he never wanted to try harder, never wanted to excel at something, never wanted to be the best, and instead of working hard, going to med school and curing cancer, he just married the girl he knocked up and spent the rest of his life collecting a check from "those greedy rich people." Who, by the way, did work hard, did want something better for themselves, and they got off their asses, and they went out and GOT IT!

This may seem to be a bit off topic but the social medicine programs that started this conversation are part of the same problem. You cannot address one independent of the other. Until we realize that the problems are systemic and pervasive through our entire social/governmental structure, we cannot act effectively to fix them.

Ultimately what it boils down to is that some of us think that if we were allowed to use our money (effort and time) as we see fit then it would have a much greater impact than the government's use of said money.

The other side of the argument believes (and I think this is perverted logic at best) that they are the epitome of charity in their advocacy for the government to take from one and give to another. What they seem to believe is that they are charitable but the rest of humanity is greedy and selfish and left to their own devises would never help anyone. If you really believe that everyone but you is selfish, why would you want to help them? And that, in my opinion, is the primary flaw in that line of reasoning. In order to want to help others you must first have a sincere belief in the redemptive quality of your fellow man. But since that sincere belief logically leads to my side of the argument, I'm forced to realize that many folks who are claiming to be charitable, by advocating for wealth redistribution, either have a nefarious reason for doing so, or only want to be SEEN as charitable and giving. The desire for perceived charity over actual charity, in my opinion is one of the definitions of evil.

Will work for mmo

Stop sounding like a broken record. Insurance companies should provide insurance at a fair price & fair conditions. Yes the world isn't fair, but why should that be a excuse for a business not to be, their is a difference between a business & the Mafia/mob.



I never put that. Lets all look at this good What about those who aren't lazy? The health insurance companies didn't lift a finger to provide health insurance to peopke,

Ok I misspelled people, but I don't see free or anything that means free.



So all that just to say I believe everyone is selfish, so thanks for rubber stamping me that way. I gave $100 to the help for Haiti charity. I hope you or your loved ones never get horribly sick, or have to pay for meds./med. bills or the house/food/car/utilities. Why can't someone get health insurance for $350ish instead of $1,000+

About group charity, in France almost everything is handled by the gov'. So a lot of people thinks that "well, I'm paying enough taxes, so I help those enough already".
And we are the nation which eats the most anti-depressors per year.
If you follow some theory about oxytocin saying that it's released by your brain as a reward when you help people the anti depressor shit would be explained.

Wanna help people ? Do it yourself with your time, your effort or your money. Not those of other people.

If, "didn't lift a finger to help" those people who aren't paying them doesn't mean free then I'm afraid you and I have completely different understandings of the English language.

I don't know where you're getting your figures but I currently pay about $250 per month for outstanding medical coverage from Cigna. I used to have BCBS and they were just as good. If you're paying more than that, perhaps you should shop around...

I've had loved ones get sick. I've watched people I love waste away and die. It is sad, it is tragic and its something that takes years to recover from. Please stop throwing the "I hope you never..." line at me as though I've never had friends or family get sick and die. Every time you do that it makes me want to respond with "Fuck you, don't talk to me." If you want to continue with the veiled personal assaults and passive aggressive taunts, I'll be glad to exit stage left and let you fight with yourself. I thought we were engaging in a debate of ideas, but you don't seem to have any. Each of your posts is a rehashing of the "its not fair, some one should pay for my stuff" argument, if you can call it that.

Clearly I'm not getting through to you Salohcin. I'm sorry that I'm not intelligent enough to help you understand my point. I hope that someday you meet someone who is.

And let me say, just since we're quoting figures, I pay roughly $225 a PAY PERIOD (1 week) for good benefits from BCBS via HP. This is for family of 4 which I know is a godsend however add that up over 52 weeks per year and that's $13,000 per year just for "good" coverage with a pretty hefty deductible.

Now, that's medical and prescription. Add in Long and Short term disability (cause you never know), full Eye coverage for the family and Dental which is mediocre but that's all they have. That probably runs me another $125, again PER PAY, and literally I'm nearing $20,000 for benefits. Those are all good packages at good rates mind you so I don't bitch but..


Sometimes you have to pay to play.. I make a very good salary, I don't deny that, and I do go out of my way to do things for other people but in no way am I rich. I put literally 20% of my annual salary into a 401k fund because I know, someday, I won't be around and I want my wife and kids to be covered. If I survive long enough to help reap some bennies before I pass, well then, I've thought ahead. I'm greatful for everything I've owned but I must say I've never, NEVER, sat around idle and taken from the government. I've even refused unemployment at time or two in my early days because, honestly, it's not the right thing to do EVEN THOUGH I do pay into that system.

I pay enough taxes and if you knew even you would be shocked because even at a family of 4 I claim zero (0) married which is the second (zero, unmarried is the most) most amount of tax you can take out. Why? Because I can and have to and I don't want a situation like I had in my younger years while running my own SOHO consulting company, pay my ass in taxes at the end from 1040's ever again.

To each his own but the point of the matter, I believe, there are tons of people who get a WHOLE BUNCH for little to no effort. My wife cried one day coming home to me when we first had our first child because she was driving a used beat-me-up car, all we could afford at the time, while some mothers who were on government aid were driving new SUV's and shiny new toys. That's not right and honestly made me work HARDER to get those things for my wife and family, not work less and take advantage of the system.

Sorry rant over, now I'm pissed even more..

Thanks..

There are tons of medical plans you can get for under $350.
Basic EPO plans run roughly $100 - $150 a month, for a single individual and include prescription coverage as well as basic doctors visits and a certain amount of lab work per year. Hell, some even cover the cost of labor, which can be upward of $25,000 - $50,000, if everything is routine.

I personally pay $1,050 a month for my health coverage (through Oxford; family of 4), have no deductible, a $15 co-pay, $15 prescription plan and have never been denied or second guessed for any claim we have ever had to make. My lady has been to the doctor more than 15 times since our 2nd childs birth and our health plan has always covered every last bit of it, including her MRIs and MRAs. If you want good coverage, you should pay for it; if you prefer to pay for cheaper medical coverage to save some money, that is fine, but do some good research before deciding when and why you go to the doctor.

Health Insurance has to cost a lot because there are a lot of charges involved in the process. Considering I have been with my health insurance company for only 14 months ($14,700) and they have already paid out in excess of $40,000 in that time, I sure as hell feel ahead of the game. No increase in my premium and no additional questions asked. If I had no insurance, the $40,000 that the insurance company paid would have cost me over $80,000, since the insurance company gets a hefty discount; so again, I have no issues with how my current insurance is. My only issue is I feel a lot of doctors are being underpaid for their work. Whenever we go in for a physical, or sick visit, my insurance only pays the doctor $17 and change, plus my $15 co-pay...hardly a way to make a living since sometimes we are seen for a good 30 - 45 mins and sometimes have re-checks, in which we pay nothing.

On another side note, my Life Insurance policy, covers me until 2078 (at which time I will be 95 years old; most likely already passed away) and has $1,000,000 coverage for my family. I pay $363 a year for that policy for the next 30 years. This will amount to roughly $10,890 over the course of 30 years...hardly a portion of the final payout. It pays to get these things when you are young and healthy to avoid the higher end premiums.

Spot on my friend..

If that means going with the latest toy, gadget or shit like that then it must be.

As well, and I preach this to my younger breathren here and abroad, as you age these words ring true:

"We never plan to fail, only fail to plan"

Drakiis = epic gimp fail

Point being?

They have no interest in a cure.

That's obvious by the video and without argument as to if that's the truth or not how does this tie into your other arguments? That the right is doing this and the left wouldn't?

In other words why did you post this and in what regard to your prior arguments..

Its interesting that there is not one single negative comment to be found about this woman. No one is that well liked.

I'm not saying she's wrong. You're naive beyond measure if you didn't already know that the drug companies are in it to make money, but that doesn't mean that the drugs don't work.