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#84011 - 01/22/11 05:07 PM Re: Take that you dirty rats... [Re: Kaotic]  
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Tasorin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Its only point on if you believe what he says!!!


Helemoto 1

Tasorin 0



I believe in facts, not politics. Every thing he said, short of the Rebulican's being a bunch of liars was fact based.

Don't let your beliefs get in the way of the facts. Unles your Faux News, then just make the facts up.


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#84057 - 01/23/11 01:56 AM Re: Take that you dirty rats... [Re: Tasorin]  
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JetStar Offline
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Amen brotha, amen.


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#84134 - 01/24/11 05:49 AM Re: Take that you dirty rats... [Re: Tasorin]  
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Kaotic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tasorin
I believe in facts, not politics. Every thing he said, short of the Rebulican's being a bunch of liars was fact based.

Don't let your beliefs get in the way of the facts. Unles your Faux News, then just make the facts up.


First off, you do realize that they can say anything on the floor of the House with impunity, right? i.e. you can't be sued for liable or slander for anything you say while debating in congress.

Second, I'm not affiliated with any political party. I prefer to turn on my brain and use a little common sense rather than be spoon fed whatever drivel they believe I'm capable of understanding.

I don't know where he got "130,000 new agencies" but Obamacare definitely does create new ones. I'm sure its not that many.

New IRS agents = Fact - Several thousand new agents will be required to enforce the fining and subsequent audit procedures for the folks who refuse to pay for health care.

Death panels = Fact - Of course they aren't called death panels, and they will likely never sit and say "you aren't worth keeping alive" but they will require your doctor to "counsel" you and your family about the "pros and cons of extending your end of life care." That's a pretty slippery slope. I know I don't want anyone trying to convince me that my grandparents aren't worth spending the money on to keep them alive. Nor do I want anyone attempting to convince my grandparents that they are a burden on my family and they should just "let nature take its course"...
Originally Posted By: New York Times - Bastion of Conservatism...Oh wait
Federal regulators are considering taking the highly unusual step of rescinding approval of a drug that patients with advanced breast cancer turn to as a last-ditch hope.
Mostly because of the cost. If you think it won't be all about money when the government is in control of your health care, then I don't think you and I can have an intelligent debate.

Members aren't covered = Fact - Congress and the President aren't required to purchase health care because we provide the very best for them already. Nothing in the bill changes that, so their coverage won't change, while we won't be allowed to keep our plans after this year if there are any changes made to the plan...

No tort reform = Fact - You find me significant tort reform in that bill and I will eat my shoe.

"The we don't really mean it strategy" He's right on with this one. Obviously these morons didn't get the message in November. We don't want the same shit with a different name, put forward by different members, we want real change and a repeal of this monstrosity.

"Socialized medicine - Giving people incentives to go to private insurance companies." Yes there is language in the bill that suggests these incentives exist, however, much of the rest of the bill will drive private insurers out of business and then what will you do?

"The republicans are a wholey owned subsidiary of the health insurance industry" - If they are working to repeal the bill then they are doing the will of, what numerous polls put at, over 70% of the citizens of this country.

By all means, if you want to continue to keep your head in the sand and pretend that Social Security and Medicare aren't completely bankrupt (just like the entire federal government) then do so, and I refer you to my previous statement that you and I cannot have a reasonable debate.


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#84138 - 01/24/11 07:42 AM Re: Take that you dirty rats... [Re: Kaotic]  
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JetStar Offline
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Kaotic has been worshiping Glenn and Sarah again. Naughty Naughty!

Using the term "fact" a little loosely there huh?

Not going to address all your points again, but take a look at this. End of life counseling is NOT a death panel, K thanks...
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/palin-vs-obama-death-panels/


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#84149 - 01/24/11 03:01 PM Re: Take that you dirty rats... [Re: JetStar]  
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Kaotic Offline
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Originally Posted By: JetStar
Using the term "fact" a little loosely there huh?

Where? How about you do the same research that I'm doing and post the data you find filtered through your own mind, rather than just mindlessly linking websites that force us to do your research for you?

I never said that the words "death panel" were in the health care bill and I thought I was pretty clear when I explained that this bill does not provide for a panel of government officials who preside over whether someone lives or dies. What I DID say is that this is a very slippery slope. What business does the government have legislating that a doctor counsel their patients on end of life care? If I want to know I'll ask, and if I don't want to know, I won't. Now, if you're like the folks in D.C. and you believe that the average American is too stupid to think to speak to their doctor about health care questions, well then, you and I disagree on a level too fundamental for this conversation to continue.

You're a real big fan of calling the rest of us mindless automatons who just repeat what we hear on Fox news and various other sources that you happen to disagree with, but when it comes to these arguements all of us opposed to your viewpoint continually post in our own words, evidencing that we have thoroughly digested the material at hand and are prepared to back up our conclusion, while you simply post links to what other people think. Who is the mindless automaton?


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#84199 - 01/24/11 10:09 PM Re: Take that you dirty rats... [Re: Kaotic]  
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Derid Offline
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Jet does research... he just does it very selectively, and ignores anything that doesn't fit his preconception grin popcorn

On a serious note, I constantly amuse myself by reflecting on how alike the extreme left and right have become in terms of how their thought processes work. The only difference is in what topics they choose to have "importance".

The left places importance on things like health care, "environmentalism" , and commerce regulation - and tends to support any talking head or politician who claims to "tackling these important problems" without encumbering themselves with the pesky task of rationally analyzing the full effects (or lack thereof), or unintended consequences of the harebrained plans put forth by said politicians.

On the right, we often see the topics of immigration, legal and otherwise, "family values", homeland security, drugs, and combating Islamists. Again, same deal. Lots of demagoguery, lots of hare brained plans and policies that completely ignore objective reality on these topics and completely abstain from any type of thorough rational analysis of the true scope and effects of said policies.

Few people want to think, or deal with objective reality. Too many people are entirely content to take whatever sound-byte sounds ideologically pleasing and run with it.

The problems of drugs, homeland security, illegal immigration, and "family values" are not going to go away because of crackpot schemes that crack down on individual liberty and/or spend obscene amounts of taxpayer money any more than cracking down on individual liberty, implementing crushing tax and regulation levels and spending massive outlays of taxpayer money on new multi-tiered bureaucracies are going to solve the problems of health-care, social inequality or keep opportunistic Wall Street types from finding a loophole to fleece unwary investors.



For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#84263 - 01/25/11 07:43 PM Re: Take that you dirty rats... [Re: Derid]  
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Kaotic Offline
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I'm sure he does Derid. I was just a little aggravated at what I took to be a flipant response to my post. I'm sure it wasn't meant that way. But, he does tend to post links rather than digested material a lot. Probably just to keep the conversation going...
Originally Posted By: Derid
The problems of drugs, homeland security, illegal immigration, and "family values" are not going to go away because of crackpot schemes that crack down on individual liberty and/or spend obscene amounts of taxpayer money any more than cracking down on individual liberty, implementing crushing tax and regulation levels and spending massive outlays of taxpayer money on new multi-tiered bureaucracies are going to solve the problems of health-care, social inequality or keep opportunistic Wall Street types from finding a loophole to fleece unwary investors.


I'm with you. The only way to solve these problems is with more liberty, not less. The poor and disabled will be taken care of through charity, there are literally millions of examples of this in our country alone, if the government would just get out of the way. Like wise with the other problems. It sounds cold and calous to say that if some one wants to kill themselves on drugs then so be it, but, as the recent events with bath salts show, if some one really wants to get high they will find a way and we cannot make everything illegal...

I saw today that some legislator in New York is proposing a bill to fine people $120 for texting while walking. Really? If anything should be illegal it should be the passing of laws that are designed to protect people from their own stupidity. I also heard that the woman who fell in the fountain at the mall is considering sueing the mall. For what, rushing out and constructing a fountain in her path? Amazing.


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