The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (PUBLIC) The Pub Saving America?

LOL, I made a long post and then when I hit the "Continue" button the oracle crapped out on me, forced me to use the "back page" and of course all my text was gone. Oracle pwnd me!

Oh well, to sum it up. We need to travel the world and live without the daily american lifestyle before we can truly appreciate it. And only after that can you make a realistic criticism about the US.

Raekwon is basically stating what I mentioned in my post. Once you've witnessed the rest of the world firsthand, it gives more perspective toward the US and how great it can be, but also more insight into seeing its flaws.

How that statement can possibly hold no water is ludicrous.

I believe that the Government in some areas telling us we can't smoke in bars or restaurants is a good thing for everyone. So is eliminating transfats and hydro or partially hydrogenated oils from restaurants. Personally I believe strongly against being "frogs in the boiling pot" but I can't see how not smoking in a restaurant or not being able to stop your heart with hydrogenated oil is infringing on your REAL rights. In fact, you're giving more rights to those who cherish better health, which can hardly be a negative thing, and you're giving people with bad health habits something to think about.

In most other circumstances, however, I believe the government should take a back seat and simply act as protector of our nation. That's just it; with each circumstance, a different viewpoint and code of conduct may be needed. The situation should dictate the resolution - comparing gun control to smoking control is like comparing Apples to Potatoes. Each situation need be handled differently.

I sooooo don't understand this "I've seen the rest of the world, this is good enough for me." mentality or how you can find the will to support the government taking away basic freedoms. I agree that a LOT of the freedoms they've taken away are trivial, but I don't like the fact that they're able to take them. With an uncontested pinch here and an overlooked poke there, our lawmakers won't be far from taking away some freedom that is trivial to most, but you cherish. For instance, I think that a small, backwoods-town tavern, with a small fireplace and an old wooden bar, that's run by a middle aged man and his family, is the perfect place to have a dog. However, there are laws preventing having a dog there. The reason dogs aren't allowed in restaurants is because they're apparently unsanitary. I don't know about you guys, but I grew up with dogs in my house, dogs that I rolled on the floor with, slept next to, ate my dinner with their eager faces popping out from under the table waiting for scraps, and all of the other fun things you do with dogs. My dogs have never made me sick or feel like I'm not in a clean place, and the same goes for any other healthy, loved dogs anywhere I go.

It is called political activism... get involved in the process... propose ballot issues etc.

It is so easy to knock this or knock that, but it is very true that until you have seen the rest of the world it is hard to appreciate all that we have here in the .

So playing devils advocate are you not in favor of health standards Slinger? What about seat belts? Drinking and driving? So where would you draw the line as a politician and why?

It is easy to say that certain basic freedoms have been taken away (smoking for instance) but in certain cases people are just to stupid for their own good... (that ought to stir things up). Why would anyone want to smoke based on the documented medical evidence?? Because it is their right to kill themselves from lung cancer if they wish... however it is not their right to kill me from second hand smoke...

This discussion could go on forever, but the important thing to remember is that you can actually discuss this and not end up in jail... one of the great freedoms of this country.

Actually, as I mentioned earlier, a lot of trivial freedoms have been taken away, and the right to not wear a seatbelt is one that I think is completely foolish. I wear my seatbelt, not only do I wear it, but I love it. Some people refuse to wear them, and they get pulled over and fined for it. Who's came up with that one? Seatbelt laws were not made to save lives, they were made to collect money; if someone is too stupid to wear their seatbelt, do you really acre that much? Call me insensitive, but all of these safety measures that the country puts into action for us are just making money for the government and preventing survival of the fittest.

I would rather insurance companies say "If you're in an accident and didn't have your seatbelt on, our contract is void."

But again, I love my seatbelt.

As for non-smoking laws, that's a highly debatable subject, and does lean in the favor of not allowing it in public places. However, I'm not a smoker, but I do feel that restaurant owners and the like should have the right to allow smoking in their bars and what-have-you. It's not like they lock the door behind you when you walk into a bar, you can walk right out if you don't like the smoke. Again, this promotes survival of the fittest. If it becomes unpopular to smoke and a restaurant owner is permitting his 3 smoking customers to smoke, and his 40 non smoking customers go somewhere else, he'll reconsider the policies of his establishment.

Oh, and drunk driving is a no-brainer. Restrictions here are completely legitimate in my opinion, as you can't say "Oh, look, that guy is obviously driving drunk, I think I'll just leave this road."

Health standards, this is a tricky one in my opinion. There are basic standards that should be set, like a clean work environment and fit conditions for people to spend their work day in. However, there are some regulations that I think are just a little over the top, and this brings me back to liking dogs when I go someplace like a small-town tavern. The question is then raised: "Are dogs sanitary, or unsanitary?" The answer is pretty simple, if you don't get all tied up in logistics. A clean, healthy, well-fed, friendly dog is really no threat to the cleanliness of a work place; neglected dogs, such as dogs who are underfed and are unhealthy because of it, or dogs that are vicious and bite, are obviously jeopardizing the cleanliness and safety of anywhere they go, public or private.

So the laws made in response to Upton Sinclair's 'The Jungle' are great, they keep large businesses from killing and injuring people who are thrust into shitty jobs because they have no where else to go. On the other hand, laws that keep lovable dogs out of restaurants because some insane mother was worried her child might die from being near a dog in public. (Okay, so that's probably not how anti-dog-restaurant laws came to be, but you get my point...)

Well, when you get right down to it, the 'government' isn't doing it at all. We are doing it to ourselves, based on who we elect to public office. Lawmakers don't come up with this stuff in a vacuum: they listen to a lot of people. Constituants, lobbyists, special interest groups, corporations, and so forth. They are passing these laws because there is widespread support for them in many areas. However, there have been several instances of laws here in Utah that faced vigorous push back on the part of voters when they were initially proposed, and the legislators who initially sponsored the bills dropped them like a hot rock once they figured out that, no, the people in my district really don't want that boneheaded idea made into law.

When it comes to anti-smoking legislation, you are barking up the wrong tree, because there is a VERY strong anti-smoking sentiment in society at large. That is democracy, bub, and in this case, you are swimming against the current.

In some cases I agree with you Slinger, seat belts and helmets for motorcycles are 2 of them. Don't want to wear them, fine, just sign this waiver declining all medical coverage if involved in an accident.

I love dogs also but I am afraid I disagree with you on having them in restaurants etc... just not the right thing to do...

And as I stated and Owain alludes to this is all about political activism... don't like what is going on then get involved. Putting ideas out for people to read is unfortunately not going to get much wide spread attention because there is a large percentage of America that does not give a shit and won't read jack... evidenced by voter turn out, or the lack there off... pathetic...

I don't expect to be able to make smoking legal in public places again, though I do expect to educate people as to what changes are being proposed so they can voice their opinions on them.