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#141862 - 10/11/17 07:31 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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You know, now that I think of it, Nazi cosplay is a fairly common sexual fetish that is not necessarily rooted in white supremacy. Charlottesville was just a sexual lib display, and therefore we should stop all attempts at denouncing them


#141865 - 10/11/17 10:01 PM Re: Trump card [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini

1. Where is your red line on actions of the protesters? Is destruction of property unrelated to statues acceptable? Attacks on journalists? Initiating violence?
2. Do you acknowledge that these statues have non-zero historical value?
3. Do you acknowledge that Civil War was fought over significantly broader set of issues than just slavery vs. anti-slavery?
4. Are you willing to accept that different points of view, other than slavery vs. anti-slavery, could exists in relation to statues? That is, are these statues only represent slavery, and nothing else?

Take your time.


1. My opinion on this is tangential to the issue of whether or not the statues deserve to remain where they are and I'm not going to go there just because that's the debate you'd rather have
2. Case by case basis, majority no, vast majority are providing insincere/whitewashed representations of history
3. My opinion on this is tangential to the issue of whether or not the statues deserve to remain where they are and I'm not going to go there just because that's the debate you'd rather have
4. Are you trying to say that your sexual fetish is being near a statue of a confederate soldier? More power to you, but for a huge swath of Americans they represent systemic oppression and racism, and that interpretation is not only objectively accurate but contemporaneously by the people who put them up, and currently by some people who want them to stay up, the desired interpretation. On balance, the consideration of your sexual fetish and the well-meaning but misguided ancestors of confederate soldiers simply do not measure up, given the alternative compromises (relocation and reinterpretation) that exist.



On #1. Could you think of anything that would be unacceptable action in getting these statues removed? This isn't a side debate, as we largely agree on overall goals - reducing racism, but disagree on methods - removal of statues.

On #2. If some of these statues have non-zero value, this value should be considered against benefits of removal of these statues. Earlier, you mentioned reducing racism as a benefit. Can you outline how it would work? Could you think of any other benefits?

On #3. How discussion of Civil War statues could be tangential to issues of Civil War?

I am still waiting for your answer to #4.


#141867 - 10/11/17 10:03 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Helemoto]  
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Originally Posted by Helemoto
So when Martin Luther King Left Alabama to help others protest, you see that as bad? We have a long history of people going to other areas of the country to help protest. Imagine what the country would look like if everyone stayed only in the areas you see fit to keep them.


This is actually a very good point on locale. The key difference is that MLK advocated and practiced non-violence, while current crop of protesters relies on violence. So in a way, it is a hypothetical one, like discussing militaristic Ghandi that raised an army and fought bloody civil war against British.


#141873 - 10/12/17 10:45 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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1) Nearly every modern leftist protest I've ever seen has had some element of violence, as far as I can tell some people think violence is a solution to all problems, therefore whether or not this particular controversial issue incites people to violence is tangential because it is guaranteed to due to the nature of controversy itself.

2) I've already given an outline as to how statues and other forms of symbology contribute to racism and how, therefore, their removal would contribute to tolerance. It is a multifaceted, nuanced issue and I'll leave the specifics to researchers of sociology.

3) Again, the statues are forms of symbolism, of a kind which represents issues stemming from the aftermath of the civil war and not directly from the causes of the civil war.

4) I've given you my answer, I grant that for some people they are statues of great great great grandpop and for some other people they are items of sexual fetish.


#141874 - 10/12/17 03:32 PM Re: Trump card [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
1) Nearly every modern leftist protest I've ever seen has had some element of violence, as far as I can tell some people think violence is a solution to all problems, therefore whether or not this particular controversial issue incites people to violence is tangential because it is guaranteed to due to the nature of controversy itself.


Your continued avoidance of direct answer on this leads me to believe that you condone this violence. Otherwise why wouldn't you just state "I disagree that violence is acceptable tool in reaching these goals" and we could agree and move on. Derid covered why this is important at length.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
2) I've already given an outline as to how statues and other forms of symbology contribute to racism and how, therefore, their removal would contribute to tolerance. It is a multifaceted, nuanced issue and I'll leave the specifics to researchers of sociology.


You did no such thing. You repeatedly stated that they contribute to racism, and that removing them will reduce racism. I do not require you to cite papers, I simply want you to outline how you believe this would work. Do you think these statues incite white people to hurl racial slurs at minorities? Do you think KKK membership will be reduced if these come down? Do you think police would stop targeting minorities? Please explain your view.

Quote
4) I've given you my answer, I grant that for some people they are statues of great great great grandpop and for some other people they are items of sexual fetish.


So you agree that Civil War was fought over multitude of complex issues, that statues represent different things to different people, that some of these statues may have historical value... yet you go right back to reducing it all to "racists vs. anti-racists". Why?


#141875 - 10/12/17 03:41 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Trump displays outrageous censorious behavior and no outrage follows from GOP or Dems.

Free press, and yes that includes various fake news outlets, is a cornerstone of Liberal Democracy.


#141876 - 10/12/17 11:52 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted by Sini
Trump displays outrageous censorious behavior and no outrage follows from GOP or Dems.



What rock are you living under.


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#141880 - 10/13/17 05:32 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted by Sini
Derid covered why this is important at length.


It's a distraction from the actual issue, and with issues of race the tactic of distraction is the most insidious one used by those who personally feel no pressure to address the issue, which is why I refuse to allow it in my response.

Originally Posted by Sini
You did no such thing.


Yeah, I did.

Originally Posted by Sini
yet you go right back to reducing it all to "racists vs. anti-racists". Why?


Because the concerns of those who sexually fetishize statues are not as important to our society as matters of race.

Last edited by rhaikh; 10/13/17 05:52 PM.

#141882 - 10/13/17 10:25 PM Re: Trump card [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
Derid covered why this is important at length.


It's a distraction from the actual issue, and with issues of race the tactic of distraction is the most insidious one used by those who personally feel no pressure to address the issue, which is why I refuse to allow it in my response.



Telling you that you are doing it wrong is not distracting from the issue of race. Pretending that it is, is intellectually dishonest.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#141884 - 10/14/17 07:20 PM Re: Trump card [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh

Originally Posted by Sini
You did no such thing.


Yeah, I did.



Please quote your own post to point it to me.


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