What if 1 person in the groups job was to use the mark spell {Name?} and jsut identify targets. Then the entire group would focus on one target at a time. They could stand off a bit.
What do you think?
Sounds like how things worked in DAoC.. all the DPS focuses on one target designated by the "main assist". I haven't played DF but it sounds like a reasonable way to PvP to me.
Realistically, with the fluidity of combat, this might be a hit or miss. You never know though, we'll try it next time we're out (if anyone has it)
What is the range like on the mark spell?
It's beacon, and I have it to lvl 40 something.
It's pretty short actually...it will not reach from the nearest house to the bindstone
Expanding on this thread a bit, So far I've seen the following group tactics work fairly well, IMO:
1. Stay close to each other - Preferrably the group leader
I've found that it's much easier for the group leader to call targets and get results when we're all fairly close to each other. Also, when we're spread out, what happens is we get pockets of battle forming with odds against us like 3v1 at times. If we stick together and the enemy splits up, we can get them in 3+v1s instead of the other way around.
Also by staying close together, it becomes easier for the group leader to move the group without worrying about straglers. 'Fall back to the east...oh shit look so and so is getting swarmed because they're cutting through the enemy trying to go east. If he/she was with us they wouldn't be getting swarmed.'
2. If an enemy drops, GANK THEM
The other day we were winning a group v group encounter, but since we didn't gank the people we dropped, enemies revived them, they dropped back and healed, and then came back at us in force. We had to retreat instead of wiping the floor with them. Luckily we found them again not to long after that, and this time we stuck closer together and ganked those we dropped. This time the enemy fled the field, and we got to loot.
Anyone else have more to add? Or maybe this should be in it's own thread. I don't know.
I don't know about the sticking close together. For example when we were holding the clan house in the failed CoS siege the other day, we had like 4 guys at the top of a set of stairs pushing the enemy offensive back. Luckily the enemy didn't have a mage who saw this, because all I was thinking at the time was "four free kills if I had my elemental magic trained." Those elemental spells deal 35-50 damage I hear, if we stay so closely huddled, just a few shots can wipe half our group.
/Edit: Well, I guess staying in a phalanx formation is a little bit of an extreme, and called for in this very particular situation, but I'm just pointing out something to watch out for. I do agree though that we shouldn't have our groups spread out all throughout the battle.
I particularly liked the original plan (useless since we only had a group and a half, but nice for large tactical battles) where each group is in a different channel, and officers use the speak-to-all command.
This could allow the general to delegate commands to each group, and the knight commander (or designated leader if none is present) in each group chooses how to best act the order.
I like your idea BoS the KC used to exist for that exact reason and they usually had a specialised group. An archery group doesn't need to operate like a melee group does. Totally different styles, movements etc. The general would pass the orders through for whatever kind of action we should be performing as a whole and the specialised groups react accordingly. I used to be the KC of the BlackKnights and we were spec'ed for speed and the charge.
Great example:
Melee is in bashing the enemy up, the archers / mages are looking in over the battle and casting magic on strays, and enemy reinforcements. The order to pull back to the perimeter comes in from the general, so the melee group starts backing out while the archers and mages provide cover. Or even better when the call for a pull out occurs a small group mounted rush the enemy to distract them and break them up while the melee group retreats and when the mounted are out of the way the enemy is in clear view of the range group.
All of these are great ideas.
The problem is, we havn't been able to form more than one group with the exception of the siege defense of Khosgar. Everytime we go out, it's less than one group to 12-13 at most.
My stick close together strategy was not about forming a phalanx, because when you aren't in a siege (you're out in the open) that phalanx won't really work. What I meant was keep most of the group within a screen or so of the group leader, mainly so you don't get picked off 3v1 as a straggler, and also because it makes it hard to move the group when we get all spread out over 2 or 3 screens.
Siege warfare would have a fairly different strategy than just meeting a group in the field, I would guess. Fighting in tight spaces, rather.
Time for a cold slap to the face guys, it's all well and good to talk about this; but you will learn NOTHING if you don't go out and practice these strategies.
Sieges and responding to gank raids in Khosgar will NOT teach you anything on how to properly pvp; mainly because of the fact that during sieges you don't have time to dick around because each battle is critical and, during city defense, it's really a NO BRAINER, because we just need to sit on our ass then rush or don't rush.
It isn't hard to move as a group if you go out on the offensive (not led by some other guild *cough AC *cough*) if you've been out a couple of times, worked out some strat problems, and pvped together - it becomes second nature, just like it is in any competitive FPS or MMO. We, unfortunatly, aren't at this point yet. Hell, just the other day, I heard someone in vent say, "Why is half the group following dunlop and the other half following [insert name here]?" (When going to ravens)
It's one thing if we just started the game, sure, lets grind then to get our skills decent, but most of the guild is at decent level in our combat skills. I'm not saying go out every day, but once a blue moon, when nothing's happening, go out and do some ORGANIZED pvp.
There's nothing wrong with having just a group, because a group practicing pvp is a group prepared for pvp.
Me and a couple of other guys have started to go out a couple times a week when everything's slow (no sieges) so there's no excuse really.
There is a lot to discuss and I am glad this thread was started - maybe the reading will help those just getting in the game shorten their learning curve.
Pvp - 1v1 or small gvg is different than sieging IMHO. These fights are guerilla warfare with lots of running involved. I stated in an earlier post - everyone runs, you, your enemy, even the mobs run.
With the current state of archery, you can't go wrong with upping your bow skill. For runners this is a very good damage type and is both accurate and fast, too fast to dodge in most cases. Also in small skirmishes softening targets with archery is very helpful. Taking down mounts is also another use.
We see alot of sprinting figure 8 fighting still in melee. One enemy in your stack can wreck you and your guildies, I find it necessary to back off at times and choose my swing times to try to sequence with the figure 8's. One thing you want to avoid is alot of friendly fire damage with 4-5 or more of us swinging at someone strafing us and damaging each other more than the enemy.
The other thing that is important to remember is your number one job in a fight is to stay alive - you cannot help anyone if you are dead and being at 25% or less health is going to make you the number 1 target real quick. Disengage from combat, run behind a rock or a tree or whatever and let the food/pots (you should be using) do their job. Once you are back at 1/2 health or more jump back into the action. You can also pop your mount to help with runners while you are regenning if the fight is to that point. Having multiple mounts is an advanced technique that we see people use from time to time. If you consider they are just steed grass they can add extra life for your getaway.
It is difficult to call targets and the beacon spell, we talked about in other threads, doesn't have much range. Vent is really important in fights and keeping vent clear during skirmishes can be critical.
The number one thing you want to work on is battle field awareness. This is your recognition of what is happening during the battle, who is low hp, who needs help, who is running, how many enemies are targeting you, loc of your party members, your health, running enemies, additional enemies joining the fight, and so many more things I cannot list here. Alot of information is shared in vent and your ability to react to battlefield conditions can really improve your groups chances. Be alert and pay attention, do not get tunnel vision on what you are doing and be ready to switch targets and tactics as required.
In regards to sieges we have been to several. None have went as smoothly as Khosgar. Except Khosgar they are generally a clusterfuck of fighting with no direction and little battlefield organization. Rule number 1 in a siege is still - staying alive. Rule number 2 should be to stick with your party. Generally speaking here are a few of the tactics we employ in sieges, these are typically KGB group tactics since we try to avoid the clusterfuck activity as much as possible. First you will be with your group or you will be dead most likely (I know I repeated that 3 times already). As we enter the battlefield the group/siege leader will be calling a location and someone will be setting a waypoint. This will be the initial fighting point and (possibly) later fall back point if a hasty retreat is called. The first engagement is usually mana/bow range attacks on called target AREAS such as first house rooftop or clan stone or bank etc. As this starts primary fighting locations in town are being assessed and hopefully higher ground can be found, such as a rooftop or tower. Everyone must pay attention and move as a group to each successive location. Tower/rooftop fights typically include shield blocking the stairs (less effective with launch) and group targeting called targets with spells/bows.
One of the other things that is effective in sieges is getting on the clan stone if your on the offensive. Several of the sieges turn into naked fighting by the defenders that seems to occupy the attackers - really what should happen is the clan stone should be cleared by the attacking force then hammers immediately should be started on the stone while squads of attackers clear out towers, rooftops and other higher ground locations attacking the hammer wielders.
If no new target is called stay on the last called target or find a nearby enemy to whack. It's likely that one or more the the target callers/group leaders may disconnect during a long siege and someone should pick up the target calling.
If you are defending GANK everyone if you are attacking GANK NO ONE. Be careful about looting in sieges often we are told not to loot during fights.
If we lose we will likely be retreating quickly to save gear, mounts etc. If we lose and you are naked and want to fight it out its up to you.
I hope this wall of text can help someone.