The KGB Oracle
Posted By: Sini GOP internal civil war - 11/12/12 07:11 PM
Karl Rove vs. Evangelicals

Quote:
Rove's treason began long before election day, when the Fox News contributor led the party's tar-and-feathering of Missouri Senate candidate Todd Akin, who came under fire for his now infamous "legitimate rape" comments. The party's perceived betrayal of Akin confirmed what many grassroots conservative activists had long suspected.

The feeling that Republicans were duped by their own is echoed around the conservative blogosphere, as right-leaning writers, activists, and the party's rank-and-file collectively process how the GOP lost an election that less than a year ago looked to be in the bag.


The irony of Rove standing in for the 'sane element' of GOP is so delightfully ironic that it doesn't even require a snarky comment to shine.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/08/13 04:50 PM
The 'hell no' caucus

Quote:
Republican leaders generally sit out primaries, so the Club’s aggressive, free-spending intervention has helped create a new generation of lawmakers who owe their success more to the Club than to Boehner and the GOP establishment.

Add this to the list of reasons Boehner often seems impotent these days.

So when it comes to Plan Bs, or tax-hike compromises, or the upcoming debt limit fight, lawmakers like Cotton have little incentive to take one for the Boehner team. So they don’t — and won’t.
Posted By: Brutal Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/08/13 07:33 PM
A reply to your thread title that has nothing to do with whatever you posted: Let it burn.

I hope you realize that many of us give zero fucks about the GOP.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/08/13 11:05 PM

That "hell no" caucus are the only ones who actually give a shit about anything other than lining their own pockets at the expense of the rest of us.

Actually acting like you say you are going to act during your campaign is now considered knuckledragger behavior by the left apparently. Which goes a long way towards illustrating the utter depravity of said modern left.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 01:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Derid

Actually acting like you say you are going to act during your campaign.


Two problems with this.

1. Districts were so rigged that these people don't represent anyone. They are to conservatism what Westboro Baptists are to Christianity - perverted radicalization of the worst kind.

2. They did not run on destroying US
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 03:56 PM
Did Conservatives Lose a Battle or the War?

Quote:
Rob Long: That's my point exactly. We can't stop the progressive movement. We can just slow it down.

John Yoo: Until 2016, when you can go to the country and say we want a mandate to get rid of Obamacare.

Rob Long: but we did that. That's what we had in 2012.
Posted By: Brutal Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 07:24 PM
"Conservatives" didn't lose anything, except maybe for some unfounded faith in a decrepit political system. If anything, true conservatives can look on the failings of any political party as a win.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 07:45 PM
Brutal, no true Scottsman!
Posted By: Brutal Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 07:53 PM
False. Your assertion is that conservatives have lost something when in fact republicans are the ones suffering from your so-called internal civil war.

To reiterate, zero fucks given about the GOP
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 07:57 PM
GOP internal civil war affects conservatives, because it is the only national party representing conservatism. Tea Party, Libertarians and so on are all tied to the sinking GOP ship. Blame 2-party system.
Posted By: Brutal Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 08:00 PM
It only affects those conservatives that call themselves Republicans. Let it sink, let something else take its place, or let the whole 2 party system collapse.

So here's a question for you Sini. If the Republican party were to collapse, and no major entity took its place, thereby leaving conservatives, by your own admission, with no representation in the national political sphere, would that bother you?
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 08:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Brutal
If the Republican party were to collapse, and no major entity took its place, thereby leaving conservatives, by your own admission, with no representation in the national political sphere, would that bother you?


Yes, because adversity is a necessary element of any democratic political system. In the very unlikely event that GOP collapses entirely and we end up with Democratic and Very Democratic party, you will probably meet me at the convention.
Posted By: Brutal Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 08:24 PM
So rather than pull for the dissolution of the party system, you would prefer to see something else rise to take the place of the GOP?

So here's the thing. For adversity to be necessary, it means that compromise is the goal. I mean, if you didn't believe that the 'other side' was right on some things, what good does adversity do; all it's doing is standing in the way of progress. So if that's the case, that means that you must believe that conservatives are right about something, though I admit I haven't found out what that something is yet. If you truly believe that compromise is the correct path forward, tell me what issues you are willing to compromise on. Tell me which political points conservatives have that you find to be true, or at least worthy of consideration to be melded with your own.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 08:42 PM
I would love to see 2-party system changed, but I assumed we are still constrained by practicality.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 08:44 PM
Quote:
So if that's the case, that means that you must believe that conservatives are right about something, though I admit I haven't found out what that something is yet.


For example, I really agree with conservatives that the long-term financial situation (~20 years out) and long-term deficits are problems that we have to address.
Posted By: Kaotic Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/09/13 10:54 PM
Originally Posted By: sini
For example, I really agree with conservatives that the long-term financial situation (~20 years out) and long-term deficits are problems that we have to address.

How magnanimous of you to agree with 95% of the country that we have financial problems. I believe Brutal is interested in which policies that address our problems you agree with or are willing to compromise on.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 05/06/13 08:43 PM
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/05/ohio-tea-party-kasich-insurrection-medicaid
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/15/14 04:57 PM
The war rages on, latest casualty - Chris Christie getting no support from conservatives in the face of deserved criticism for "bridge-gate". This is payback for not 100% towing party line and bipartisan efforts.

This is very unlike GOP of today that recently rallied behind a number of equally undeserving politicians, Ted Cruz being one notable example.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/15/14 05:39 PM

Your "payback" line is not entirely accurate, more like you trying to justify your own view of GOP pols using broad strokes.

Ted Cruz also was not blatantly and openly corrupt in how his office handled matters, so its really not an apples to apples comparison either. (not denying Cruz might have corrupt office being shady in a closed manner)

Anyhow, zzzzzzzzz
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/15/14 08:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Derid
Ted Cruz also was not blatantly and openly corrupt in how his office handled matters


Really? So scheduling "filibuster" does not qualify?
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/15/14 09:31 PM

Lol..

Come on you can do better than that.

(and it wasnt even a real filibuster)
Posted By: JetStar Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/15/14 11:24 PM
Let's be honest about Ted. All he was doing was using REPEAL Obama care to milk money out of the naive conservatives when he knew DAMN WELL that a repeal would never make it by the Senate or the President.

He did quite well in the fund raising. Now he can use that money to fund his failing Presidential run in 2016 where he ruins the GOP's chances of ever winning the office.

Like I said, I LOVE TED!
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/16/14 04:40 AM

Yeah more or less.

Except maybe the winning part, jury still out on that one. In 2004 few people thought the Dems would be able to completely turn the tables in 4 years and hose the country with something like Obamacare.

[Yoda] The future, hard to predict it is. Take it for granted at your peril, yes. [/Yoda]
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/16/14 03:23 PM
So it finally comes out, Derid is Ted '16 guy.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/16/14 03:44 PM

Your new nickname here is Rush Sini. Just FYI.
Posted By: JetStar Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/17/14 01:18 AM
I love Obamacare!

My next door neighbor just got insurance from the affordable care act and gets to take all his kids to a non-emergency room doctor for the first time in their lives. He is an arborist and his wife a dental hygienist. Neither of them had access to affordable health insurance.

AWESOME.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/17/14 01:30 AM

So the rest of us get hosed cause some people get subsidized to live better in insanely high cost of living areas. Instead of people moving to perfectly nice areas they can afford, instead my money gets moved to people on the Left Coast who want to live beyond their means.

Yeah thats just great, you just summed up why working people in the Midwest arent too thrilled with this whole thing.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/17/14 04:15 PM
Your view is fundamentally a false dilemma - It isn't live in orderly and open opportunity society while contributing vs. live in orderly and open opportunity society while free from contributing toward it.

It is: contribute and benefit from society OR not contribute and don't have any society.

First world libertarians with "the rest of us get hosed" are nothing but a bunch of freeloaders at a potluck party. If you don't like contributing to society, feel free to move to Somalia. My offer of free one way ticket is still on the table.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/17/14 05:16 PM

I have seen some nonsensical posts from you in the past, but that takes the cake. Your worldview is so skewed.

Fact: the couple mentioned would be able to afford nice property in a nice area, a large house, a new car, and health insurance in Ohio or many other places.

This has nothing to do with "contributing to society" in a larger sense, its about contributing to the affluent lifestyles of politically favored people.

I mean hey, I would love to move up to Stamford or Manhattan (pre anti gun frenzy I did anyhow) but I dont make the 350k/yr required to comfortably do so. Maybe I can convince people that they need to subsidize my desire to live in super expensive areas by claiming that if they dont, they dont support contributing toward an orderly and open opportunity society? Hmmm... /strokes beard.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/17/14 06:47 PM
I don't think you could establish that Jet's neighbor did not had access to health insurance due to bad lifestyle choices, unless you happen to have more information that was made available in this thread.

One likely explanation is that said neighbors were small business owners with preexisting condition like diabetes.

Another explanation is that Jet lives in a ghetto next to a crackhouse and his impoverished neighbors simply could not afford insurance.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/17/14 07:25 PM

The cost of living and property values in the area Jet lives is absurdly high. One of the highest in the country. He also said what jobs his neighbors have, so they arent impoverished crackhouse workers.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/17/14 11:51 PM
So they didn't have insurance before, but are now forced to pay for insurance now.
So they could have paid for it before ACA but chose not to.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/26/15 12:56 PM
With Boehner out there is absolutely no chance for peace.

I am sure a lot of GOP establishment now wishes they didn't jerryrig so hard.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/26/15 05:53 PM
GOP Establishment self destruction is pretty amusing. They are worthless, so its pretty hard to care about them.

I'm going to laugh even harder when Trump uses all the rules the GOP Establishment put into the RNC nomination process to prevent grassroots guys from banding together to hijack the Convention because they were afraid of Ron Paul to shut out the Establishment voice and take his solid 30% all the way to the nomination.

Establishment guys, and the Liberty and purple GOPers who dont think Rand is "pure" enough can all scream in unison as a legit fascist (yes, its become cliche to say but Trump is in fact a legit nationalistic socialist) , racist and misogynist like Trump forces a GOP implosion.

We might even see the demise of the 2-party system. If the GOP implodes, the lazy thinkers aka Democrats might finally be forced to address their own cognitive dissonance that exists due to the enormous discrepancy between what principles Democrats espouse and what they actually do.

The only reason the Democrats have managed to buy themselves a pass, is by propping up fringe right wing straw men.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/26/15 11:04 PM
Derid, are you ready for USA to become a progressive country? Because GOP Establishment is the only thing that keeps conservative movement electable. Most people are largely unsympathetic toward small government, tax cuts for the rich and so on that are core platform. It is unrestricted money, wedge issues, and gerrymandering that kept GOP afloat so far, and it won't be enough to get Trump and Co past the finish line.

If GOP falls, it is not unlikely that modern-day guillotines will be wheeled out. The masses have not forgot 09.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/26/15 11:22 PM
I think you have a pretty inaccurate view. Maybe people in your circles are unsympathetic toward small govt, but not in general.

You should check more polls.

Plus your confusing platforms and issues.

GOP Establishment is pretty progressive anyhow, and not in a good way.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/27/15 02:26 PM
People are sympathetic toward the idea of small government, but very unsympathetic to actual services they use being cut as a consequence of implementing this idea.

See following Tea Party slogan:

Posted By: rhaikh Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/27/15 07:06 PM
I agree with Sinij???

Talk about lazy thinking, what an amazing sign.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/27/15 09:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Sini
People are sympathetic toward the idea of small government, but very unsympathetic to actual services they use being cut as a consequence of implementing this idea.

See following Tea Party slogan:



I think you are missing the point.
Posted By: Sethan Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/30/15 12:10 AM


Trump is still leading most of the primary polls by several points. At this point I should probably avoid anything polling well amongst Americans.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/06/15 12:10 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/04/opinions/amash-house-gop-leadership-is-broken/index.html
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/07/15 09:45 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/poli...51006-post.html
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/07/15 09:53 PM
Have you considered that "meaningful discussion about anything" could involve discussions of intentional default, de-funding EPA, building a wall, starting a war with Iran and so on?

I am not convinced that GOP, it is present state, could be trusted to responsibly govern. While Boehner could be classified as all kinds of bad, he largely contained the tsunami of crazy from doing any immediate catastrophic damage.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/07/15 09:57 PM
If process was followed, minority parties would also have more say.

Putting Boehner and his crew up as the group that stands in the way of the things you describe is a long stretch at best. I think its a big misconception a lot of people, unfortunately have.

And its a misconception that needs cleared up among the electorate at large , so more honest reps, whatever their views and affiliations, can feel confident in pursuing reforms.

Again I ask, why arent more Dems fighting against the party leadership oligarchies? Fighting for better process, and less centralization of power is or at least should be a bipartisan goal.

For those few fringe issues that the left likes to cite, the bottom line is the far right simply does not have the votes regardless, its a straw man that only helps the Boehner and Pelosi crews.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/08/15 02:31 AM
Why is Tea Party successful influencing GOP while Occupy movement failed to influence Democrats? They almost share platforms. I think this is because the original TP withered and what left is now an astroturfing mechanism used by a few tycoons. Viewed through this lens, current GOP turmoil is one group of oligarch trying to push out another group of establishment cronies so they can get into the trough. No good guys to be found anywhere.

Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/09/15 12:27 AM
Kevin McCarthy abandon his bid for speaker
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/09/15 04:29 AM
Originally Posted By: Sini
Why is Tea Party successful influencing GOP while Occupy movement failed to influence Democrats? They almost share platforms. I think this is because the original TP withered and what left is now an astroturfing mechanism used by a few tycoons. Viewed through this lens, current GOP turmoil is one group of oligarch trying to push out another group of establishment cronies so they can get into the trough. No good guys to be found anywhere.



Leaving the Dems aside for now, just to avoid tangents -

I think there is something to what you are saying. But also think that quite a few people are ideologically inclined. I think this includes some rich folks.

But still, I think a major difference is regardless of anything else the TP movement came with a large strain of citizen governing. In the GOP, major strategies of the genuine grassroots were to grab party positions even at the county and State level for example.

The apparatus was actually infiltrated. The anger towards the elite oligarchs abusing process to shut out the grassroots voice and try and force their agendas on everyone is real.

The manner in which it manifests at times can be ugly, when it crops up over wedge issues. But I consider it blowback, which is why I was laughing so hard earlier in the thread. The issues like abortion that were initially manufactured by the elite apparatus to keep everyone distracted have become monsters in their own right and threaten to consume them.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/09/15 05:01 AM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/creative-destruction-comes-to-congress/article/2573741
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/11/15 05:21 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/..._politics_pop_b
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/11/15 02:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Derid
A questionnaire for speaker candidates drawn up by the Freedom Caucus ahead of a Tuesday night forum, first published last week by Politico, sketched out a series of demands: more rank-and-file representation on the crucial Republican Steering Committee; adherence to the “Hastert rule” requiring a majority of Republicans to support any bill brought to a floor vote; and an end to retaliation for opposing leadership on procedural votes.


This is pretty much naked power grab giving the Freedom Caucus majority-like power. That we know they won't responsibly use.

Oh the sweet, sweet boomerang justice for gerrymandering these 40 'safe' districts.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/12/15 02:49 AM

Majority like power? I think you are calculating wrong.

It gives leadership less power, and minority party more power but not FC majority power.

Have to remember that more than half the GOP caucus is relatively new. I think they just want to be able to do what they were elected to do, not be silent pawns in the hands of K-street
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/13/15 01:44 AM
Related News
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/13/15 01:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Derid
I think they just want to be able to do what they were elected to do


Which was to obstruct government and make governing impossible. With only "check" is being labeled RINO and primaried.

In principle, I am sympathetic to congressional reforms, such as giving more power to private member bills and changing committee process to be more open. In practice I am unsympathetic to the ultimate goal to strengthen hostage-taking ability so there are fewer workaround when the minority threatens important government function, like US full faith and credit.

Plus, most of the majority can translate to representing on minority of electorate.

For example, "Pass with support of democrats" is a valid congressional function that ought not to be undermined. Doing so is arguably undemocratic.

Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/13/15 02:10 AM
I posted this a while ago in the cartoon thread, but this really explains this issue well:

Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/13/15 03:27 AM
Ryan RINOed
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/13/15 06:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Sini
Originally Posted By: Derid
I think they just want to be able to do what they were elected to do


Which was to obstruct government and make governing impossible. With only "check" is being labeled RINO and primaried.

In principle, I am sympathetic to congressional reforms, such as giving more power to private member bills and changing committee process to be more open. In practice I am unsympathetic to the ultimate goal to strengthen hostage-taking ability so there are fewer workaround when the minority threatens important government function, like US full faith and credit.

Plus, most of the majority can translate to representing on minority of electorate.

For example, "Pass with support of democrats" is a valid congressional function that ought not to be undermined. Doing so is arguably undemocratic.



Unless I have read something wrong, passing with support of Dems and minority party getting more say on bringing legislation and amendments to the floor is part of proposed reforms, not something eliminated by them. As it stands, Dems only count if GOP core leadership wants them to count.

Plus I dont think you are being very objective in general, you seem to have taken a view that if the Dems do not get exactly what they want its GOP fault if things come to a standstill. You like the cartoon, but Dems could just as easily give up Obamacare - they just dont want to and are willing to shut the govt down to keep it. But the fact is the Dems are currently the minority party.

Dont confuse process with issues. Issues are subjective, process less so.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/16/15 01:43 AM
I understand you are feeling optimistic about Freedom caucus, but I do not. Based on their past behavior, I am not willing to take their present actions at a face value. I expect ulterior motive.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/23/15 09:36 PM
NYT explained Freedom Caucus demands .
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/28/15 01:28 AM
I am surprised not to see any comments on Boehner-Ryan sausage-making.

Such a fundamental violation of GOP's God-given right to default the US gov't over Planned Parenthood and Obamacare.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/28/15 06:38 PM
Too busy, and actually a lot of other items lately have been more interesting anyhow.

I think you get too distracted though over the Dem angle. All that happens in any case is the elites of both parties put together a completely corrupt budget and both scream and moan that anyone who dare protest cares more about PP than anything.

In the end, we all get screwed anyhow.

The govt never really "shuts down" even when it "shuts down", politicians just make a deal of closed parks and such.

If someone tries to throw a wrench in the shady ass way things get done and open up process to rank and file of both parties, people who nominally care about corruption and decay get distracted by attacks against the other positions they are claimed to hold and join hands with the oligarchy.

I mean, someone on these very forums openly worried that proposed changes would lead to things like walls and wars even though the core people behind the protest were the only reason we didnt get involved even more in Syria and kept vigil on the floor to prevent Patriot Act from getting rammed through again.

But hey, looking down on people based on specious media reporting and subjective wedge issues is terribly gratifying.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/30/15 12:31 AM
So turns out, Derid is a big fan of government defaults.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/30/15 07:34 PM
jeez
Posted By: Kaotic Re: GOP internal civil war - 10/30/15 09:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Sini
So turns out, Derid is a big fan of government defaults.
This is why no one else could be bothered to take your bait.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/02/15 06:24 PM

So, Freedom Caucus rebellion has ousted Boehner , prevented that slimeball McCarthy from backing his way into the Speakership and instead we end up with Paul Ryan.


Speaker Ryan has also committed to starting major legislative processes well in advance of deadlines and letting the various committees having an opportunity to be heard and take part in the policy discussion which is IMO far and away the most important reform that the FC was asking for.

Ryan is not a perfect guy, and I certainly have many policy differences with him.... but I also fail to see how this cannot be considered a large upgrade from pretty much any angle.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/12/15 01:23 PM
Freedom caucus road leads to a government default no matter who is driving.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/25/15 03:11 AM
So much for good intentions:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/paul-ryan-succumbs-broken-house-rules/417288/
Posted By: Kaotic Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/25/15 03:22 AM
So, apparently its business as usual. Boehner without the crying.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/26/15 10:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Boehner without the crying.


I wouldn't be so sure about crying.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/15 01:38 AM
Trump's recent escalation of rhetoric cements the battle lines and likely his nomination. Surprisingly, the old Dick came out on the (relatively) reasonable side.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/15 12:32 AM
Meanwhile business as usual in Congress.

http://www.engadget.com/2015/12/16/congress-tucked-cisa-in-budget-bill/
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/15 06:46 PM

Yeah my last bit of pointless optimism has been ruthlessly crushed lately.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/19/15 06:21 PM
I don't understand why Freedom Caucus had such hard-on for Bohener, yet not a peep about this?

Congress approves surveillance legislation

Isn't this exactly what they had Ryan promise not to do?
Posted By: Sethan Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/19/15 09:21 PM
Implying you can believe anything a politician says.....
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/20/15 02:15 AM
Ryan is also a douche. Optimism was pointless, and misplaced.

The fact that people are still against the FC and ragging on them because they were unable to stop that type of behavior is just one small example illustrating why there is no hope.

Even most of the people who complain about the status quo are easily made to help enforce it and strike out at any nail that stands out against it.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/20/15 02:37 PM
I don't subscribe to "enemy of my enemy is my friend" ideology. Specifically, to me they are at best equal evils.

What I want to highlight is that it is likely FC is in Ryan's pocket, and Bohner ousting and 'hesitant rescuer' was nothing more than internal GOP power play. Otherwise, why is FC not attempting to oust Ryan for doing exactly the same thing as Bohner?
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/20/15 11:47 PM
Because their political capital is all used up. Its not like they got any support.

As I said, even other groups who dislike the status quo hammered against them. Even though their goals should in theory have been desirable to many, all it takes is a few hit pieces by status quo pushers and because other disagree on totally unrelated things they get no support.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/22/15 11:59 PM
I found this informative:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/the-great-republican-revolt/419118/
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/23/15 12:04 PM

Yeah thats a good article, and even about 90% accurate I'd say.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/23/15 10:49 PM
What I find interesting, is that a lot of what is happening right now vindicated my views on TP.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/23/15 11:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Sini
What I find interesting, is that a lot of what is happening right now vindicated my views on TP.



That's were we find most of your opinions....







[haha]
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/27/15 12:43 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/trump-poll-numbers-success/421824/

Dont forget to read the follow up piece.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/27/16 06:36 PM
Very serious take down from intelelctual right: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430137/donald-trump-conservative-movement-menace

Unfortunately I believe them to be irrelevant at this point. Gerrymandering and divisive FUD politics is the boomerang that made it so.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/27/16 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Sini
Very serious take down from intelelctual right: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430137/donald-trump-conservative-movement-menace

Unfortunately I believe them to be irrelevant at this point. Gerrymandering and divisive FUD politics is the boomerang that made it so.


I don't know about calling National Review the intellectual right, I dont think they are and I think that is a good part of why they have lost influence.

You can only justify ridiculousness for so long.

Not that Trump is better.

On the other hand, the Left has its own problems with what I will call the Milk Tea Party. Crazy corporatist/authoritarian leftists slamming on Sanders in favor of Hillary for the most absurd reasons.

On the upside, after this election the Left should be able to readily identify their own nutjobs and corrupt sycophants. Many of whom write for Salon, Mother Jones, Huffington , etc.

Quite honestly the lefts level of depravity and corruption is rather shocking yet somehow it rarely gets talked about.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/28/16 02:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Derid
slamming on Sanders in favor of Hillary for the most absurd reasons.


I know. I recently read op-ed criticizing Sanders for not supporting repatriations.

Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 01/28/16 06:07 PM

Ah yeah, I saw that too. Written by Coates

Seeing all the Milk Tea Partiers hopping on the Krugman bandwagon is also pretty amusing.

Principled leftism? Nah, gotta get a piece of that Wall St payout. Print more money, hand it to cronies and your favorite pet project and
use it to enjoy a nice 0.0001%er dinner club at the Clinton Foundation.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/14/16 01:21 PM
So GOP finally turned on Trump. He managed to cross the line. That line was questioning the wisdom of Iraq war and asking if we are really that safer now.
Posted By: JetStar Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/15/16 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Sini
So GOP finally turned on Trump. He managed to cross the line. That line was questioning the wisdom of Iraq war and asking if we are really that safer now.


Agreed. This has been very fun to watch.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/15/16 06:52 PM
Hopefully the party blows up

Considering Hillary and most of the Dem Establishment are basically neocons anyhow, both parties can hopefully implode

Probably wont happen, but what can ya do.
Posted By: JetStar Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/15/16 06:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Derid
Hopefully the party blows up

Considering Hillary and most of the Dem Establishment are basically neocons anyhow, both parties can hopefully implode

Probably wont happen, but what can ya do.


[yes]
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/15/16 11:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Derid
Hopefully the party blows up

Considering Hillary and most of the Dem Establishment are basically neocons anyhow, both parties can hopefully implode

Probably wont happen, but what can ya do.


They will write about this in the future, in the book titled "The Fall of American Empire and collapse of Western Democracy". All that is left is to wait for barbarians to show up at the gates.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/16/16 06:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Sini
Originally Posted By: Derid
Hopefully the party blows up

Considering Hillary and most of the Dem Establishment are basically neocons anyhow, both parties can hopefully implode

Probably wont happen, but what can ya do.


They will write about this in the future, in the book titled "The Fall of American Empire and collapse of Western Democracy". All that is left is to wait for barbarians to show up at the gates.


Are you seriously implying that shaking up the status quo is what would lead to that?
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/18/16 12:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Derid
Originally Posted By: Sini
Originally Posted By: Derid
Hopefully the party blows up

Considering Hillary and most of the Dem Establishment are basically neocons anyhow, both parties can hopefully implode

Probably wont happen, but what can ya do.


They will write about this in the future, in the book titled "The Fall of American Empire and collapse of Western Democracy". All that is left is to wait for barbarians to show up at the gates.


Are you seriously implying that shaking up the status quo is what would lead to that?



No, I am saying that status quo will lead to that. I don't have any faith in humanity to seriously consider that shaking up would actually happen.

However, I too would like to pretend things could be changed...
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/18/16 03:11 AM
Originally Posted By: Sini
Originally Posted By: Derid
Originally Posted By: Sini
Originally Posted By: Derid
Hopefully the party blows up

Considering Hillary and most of the Dem Establishment are basically neocons anyhow, both parties can hopefully implode

Probably wont happen, but what can ya do.


They will write about this in the future, in the book titled "The Fall of American Empire and collapse of Western Democracy". All that is left is to wait for barbarians to show up at the gates.


Are you seriously implying that shaking up the status quo is what would lead to that?



No, I am saying that status quo will lead to that. I don't have any faith in humanity to seriously consider that shaking up would actually happen.

However, I too would like to pretend things could be changed...


Oh, gotcha

Yeah fair enough

It's a depressing state of affairs. I doubt anything changes either, theres too much headwind against it and most people simply dont even have the time required to find out whats really up and sort out the BS.

At least Sanders has a small chance, and he isnt a crook neocon like Hillary or an incorporated subsidiary of Goldman Sachs like Cruz, Kasich, Jeb or... Hillary.

Dont even get me started on Trump. Though I do love the pain and suffering he is causing the Establishment. Especially after they changed the GOP convention rules to keep Ron Paul from influencing the convention.... now they are totally backed into a corner with Trump because of it and watching karma make them squirm is probably the one silver lining of this election cycle.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/18/16 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Derid
Especially after they changed the GOP convention rules to keep Ron Paul from influencing the convention.... now they are totally backed into a corner with Trump because of it and watching karma make them squirm is probably the one silver lining of this election cycle.


[yes]
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/21/16 10:18 PM
Trump won South Carolina.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/26/16 07:18 PM
Looks like trump will get nomination. I did not expect this outcome.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/26/16 07:32 PM
"Magical realism is defined as what happens when a highly detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to believe."
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/27/16 02:39 AM
I noted that establishment is starting to fall in line behind Trump. Christie endorsed him today.

So much for hoping that they would own up to this fuckup, admit they created this monster, and go independent wholesale.

Trump's GOP is, to put it lightly, is a Moron Party. I wonder if GOP can survive this, but I personally would love to see pragmatic fiscally conservative, anti-jingoistic, librarian leaning third party arise from these ashes.

Too bad we can't have nice things.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 02/27/16 04:36 AM

The problem is that both the Dem and GOP establishment have feared such a thing for a long time, which is why theyve both poisoned the
well against anything resembling common sense or decency in certain areas. Though the GOP is currently louder and more idiotic, I will give them that.

I always thought Wasserman-Schultz was hard to top in the idiocy dept, but somehow Trump managed to.....Trump her...har har
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 03/16/16 12:41 AM
Trump wins Florida.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 03/16/16 01:41 AM
Fascinating article on trump supporters in the Atlantic. I can even relate to many points (but not agree that collateral is worth it).

Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 03/16/16 02:29 AM
I remember that article.

I sort of "get" Trump supporters. Well some, there are a few major strains. But amongst many people, theres definitely a sense that some people look at gov't and politics and go "fuck me? no, fuck you "

Despite personally despising Trump, seeing that empty suit Rubio obliterated in Florida certainly generated a sense of smugness in myself. Even though I rationally know that Trump getting more delegates Is A Bad Thing.

At least it looks like Kasich was able to win Ohio. For all my general lack of enthusiasm about Kasich, if I can pretend he didn't express a desire to waste another couple trillion dollars on ineffective wars, he isn't so bad. At least I think he has something of a normal, grounded personality and general level of personal competence.

Biggest disappointment of course, is Hillary. As of this typing she is up in Ohio.

The only good news, is rumblings of 3rd party conservative bid are starting. Maybe the entire current political paradigm will get shattered. If the country can make it through four years of Trump or Hillary without devolving into a de facto police state or entering WW3 (both of which are questionable) maybe, somehow, people will come to their senses.

I doubt it though. I look to the left and see the Milk Tea Party and the total irrationality of the PC types, and look right and see the Trump swamp. Oddly enough, neither are actually left or right. Only in the USA would we classify slightly different breeds of fascist as being liberal or conservative. Real liberals and conservatives such as Sanders and Paul get marginalized by a DC/NYC Establishment which in turn wonders why they get stuck with a Trump.

But then again I predicted all this many years ago.

When a country as large as the USA stops delegating meaningful matters to more local polities, and takes the bulk of governance to the Federal level, all the average person can hear is noise. Theres too much to keep track of for the average person to hope to ever do so, which lets the mainstream talking heads wield disproportionate influence. It's kind of like a cult, on a huge scale. Thats even before considering the toxic effect of wedge issues like abortion.

Whatever one thinks about abortion, any rational person should be extremely scared when they realize the enormous role abortion has played in determining fiscal and foreign policy. How could such a state of affairs possibly engender a functional, rational society? It can't.

Right now the USA is very much a 1905 Germany: Social upheaval, tribal thinking, economic uncertainty fueled by corrupt gov't and banking, and increased tendency to seek out blame against particular ethnic groups. Add in the technology of total surveillance, and things aren't looking good for civilization.

Who knows how things will end up, but I suspect it will be somewhere in the political spectrum between 1984, and Psycho Pass. (And I highly recommend everyone watch Psycho Pass, not only is it entertaining but probably prescient )
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/18/16 08:10 PM
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/rnc-2016-republican-dischord-225701

Grab popcorn, enjoy.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/18/16 11:23 PM
{popcorn}

The only fly in this ointment is Hillary.
Posted By: Banshee Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/25/16 05:58 PM
All I really want to know is how old Sinij is and where he is from..... I know why Jet thinks the way he does...land of fruits and nuts and all.

If you really believe in a difference between the two sides well.... it's all about power, saying anything to get it, and saying anything to keep it.

That these two are the best this country could muster says a lot more about us than it does about them!
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/27/16 01:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Banshee
That these two are the best this country could muster says a lot more about us than it does about them!


Interestingly enough, I can blame Hillary on the entrenched establishment and Trump on lack of control by the establishment. If we dig deeper, we can see that Trump is a side-effect of political extremism that has its roots in 2000s era gerrymandering. So one is intended outcome, and the other one is a backfire.

When I am the king, these will be first up against the wall.
Posted By: Wolfgang Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/27/16 01:40 PM
As bad as Trump is Hilary is worse. She's a proven liar many times over and Incompetent. If Trump or anyone else at all would have wiped a private server after being told to turn it over they would have been sent directly to Leavenworth. Don't forget about there's more material coming according to Assange. Time to kick back and watch the fireworks =)
Posted By: JetStar Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/27/16 03:33 PM
I could not disagree more.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/27/16 07:34 PM

I don't see how anyone could support either. It's like being asked whether you want death by hanging or the electric chair.

I refuse to support either pile of human refuse. Instead, I will make bad puns and vote 3rd party.

There's actually a ticket on the ballot in all 50 states that features a pair of two-term blue-state governors. They like the Bill of Rights, and hate 'wars' of all sorts.

Not that I expect people to be sane enough to vote for them, but at least I will keep my own self-respect.
Posted By: Wolfgang Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/27/16 08:06 PM
I have to Agree, both have a Yuge (huge) downside. I don't like the Idea of voting for Trump. I do like Gary Johnson and Bill Weld and they will be a likely choice for me. I just hate to see Hilary get in office. Obama's term has set race relations back 30 years. Her's won't be any different, even though she once said she views herself as a moderate. She better act like it because that will be the only way she will get the votes from the fence riders.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/28/16 01:13 AM
8 years of Hillary will end with unarmed white females being shot by police in a ever increasing rate.
Posted By: JetStar Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/28/16 07:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
8 years of Hillary will end with unarmed white females being shot by police in a ever increasing rate.


[clap]
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/02/16 04:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Wolfgang
I just hate to see Hilary get in office.


I agree with you on this point, and hope you won't use this as a justification to vote for Trump, who is going to be as damaging, if not more.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/02/16 04:33 PM


I say vote 3rd party. They wont win but so what. An individual vote won't change any outcome, regardless.

I hope people place blame where it ought be placed in regards to the whole debacle - on those who have supported and support Hillary and Trump. They have ownership of the mess.

All we can take ownership of is our own votes, and we have options other than what the two main parties have handed us.

It's also not meaningless, if the other parties start breaking 5% they will get a lot more money and attention next cycle - and maybe at the very least force the two big parties back into a semblance of rationality.
Posted By: JetStar Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/02/16 09:40 PM
I am picking the lessor of two evil in my opinion. Going Hillary.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/03/16 01:37 AM
Considering Cali has no chance of going red, I admit I find that difficult to understand. But to each their own I suppose.

If humanity survives, and one day again enters a rational era, our generations will surely be the laughingstock of history.


Several hundred years from now:

"Mommy, since everyone knew HillaryTrump was bad, why did they still vote for them and usher in the Dystopic Age?"

"Well, dear, you see..."
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/03/16 01:04 PM
Originally Posted By: JetStar
I am picking the lessor of two evil in my opinion. Going Hillary.


The lesser of two evils would be Gary Johnson.
Posted By: JetStar Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/03/16 04:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Originally Posted By: JetStar
I am picking the lessor of two evil in my opinion. Going Hillary.


The lesser of two evils would be Gary Johnson.


It's very simple. I take my personal political agenda and vote for the candidate that best matches that agenda. unfortunately for us all there is no viable third-party candidate. It's not like my vote in California matter as much, but I must vote for my agenda. They're all Crooks in my eyes
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/03/16 06:48 PM
Wouldn't that be Jill Stein?
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/03/16 11:28 PM
Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Originally Posted By: JetStar
I am picking the lessor of two evil in my opinion. Going Hillary.


The lesser of two evils would be Gary Johnson.


It's very simple. I take my personal political agenda and vote for the candidate that best matches that agenda. unfortunately for us all there is no viable third-party candidate. It's not like my vote in California matter as much, but I must vote for my agenda. They're all Crooks in my eyes


Unless people start voting for third partys nothing will change
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/04/16 01:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Originally Posted By: JetStar
I am picking the lessor of two evil in my opinion. Going Hillary.


The lesser of two evils would be Gary Johnson.


Agreed. Watched CNN interview with him last night, surprisingly and disappointingly he was downplaying his libertarian creed to gain broader appeal.

Especially cringe-worthy was a question from audience on regulating food to fight obesity, and he didn't slam back on it at all and danced around by suggesting he likes to eat healthy and supports clear labeling.

While he is still preferable to Trump or Hillary, I am now less enthused.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/04/16 01:57 PM
Melania might be illegal immigrant. I hate politics going after family, especially when Trump himself are very clearly such broad target.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/04/16 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Sini
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Originally Posted By: JetStar
I am picking the lessor of two evil in my opinion. Going Hillary.


The lesser of two evils would be Gary Johnson.


Agreed. Watched CNN interview with him last night, surprisingly and disappointingly he was downplaying his libertarian creed to gain broader appeal.

Especially cringe-worthy was a question from audience on regulating food to fight obesity, and he didn't slam back on it at all and danced around by suggesting he likes to eat healthy and supports clear labeling.

While he is still preferable to Trump or Hillary, I am now less enthused.


Gary Johnson has never been a great off-the-cuff speaker or debater. I wish he was, but he just isn't.

On the other hand, I will give him credit for maintaining some campaign discipline. He knows that there is a large media segment that wants to take something out of context, or overplay it and give him the Jill Stein anti-vaxxer treatment.

It's not that he couldn't handle some of those questions - such as the food regulation - better, but not giving a response that could be straw-manned up into a Libertarian-Somalia attack is already doing pretty good, all things considered.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/18/17 10:32 PM
This shit just got real, Majority GOP can't seem to manage to repeal ACA.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/18/17 11:00 PM
Considering how shitty the "replacement" was, I'm not sure that's a terrible thing.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/19/17 12:21 AM
Derid, but we all know ACA is communism.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/19/17 01:21 PM
That legislation was a continuation of much of Obamacare, not a repeal, which is why it failed.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/19/17 02:46 PM
Because Republicans have been lying for 7 years now and actually don't know how to govern since they are the party of true obstructionism
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/19/17 03:05 PM
It's not that simple. My Senator, Mike Lee, was very serious about repeal and opposes efforts to slap a bandaid on Obamacare. He is faithfully representing his constituents in Utah. Other Republicans in other states may well be faithfully representing their constituents as well by supporting current legislation.

When it comes to federal legislation, it isn't always Republicans and Democrats, or liberals and conservatives. Sometimes it's Utah and Wyoming against Vermont and California. That's why we have a federal system, and why local politics sometimed overrules national politics.
Posted By: Kaotic Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/19/17 04:18 PM
Any now they can't even get the votes to repeal. They did it when they knew that Obama would veto it, now they won't vote for it. The original repeal votes were clearly just an exercise in manipulating the voters to vote for them one more time.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/19/17 05:20 PM
Again, neither the Republican party nor the Democratic party are monolithic on this, nor should they be.

This is the political process. It will go back and forth until both sides can arrive at a compromise suitable to both. If neither side is willing to compromise, we are in for a long wait.

We got to this situation because Democrats were unwilling to compromise in the first place, which is why Obamacare was passed in both houses with ZERO Republican votes. That put on on this road, and it will take some doing to find an exit agreeable to both parties.
Posted By: Brutal Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/31/17 01:05 PM
Comedians will be mining this gold for a long time.
Posted By: Brutal Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/31/17 07:39 PM
And just as quickly as he came, so he has left.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/us/politics/anthony-scaramucci-white-house.html
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 07/31/17 09:50 PM
"The decision to remove Mr. Scaramucci, who had boasted about reporting directly to the president not the chief of staff, John F. Kelly, came at Mr. Kelly’s request, the people said. Mr. Kelly made clear to members of the White House staff at a meeting Monday morning that he is in charge."

Maybe the morale is, Don't Fuck With The Former Marine Chief Of Staff.

http://freebeacon.com/.../trump-removes-scaramucci-comms.../
Posted By: Brutal Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/01/17 04:38 PM
Whoever makes these deserves some recognition.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 08/01/17 09:06 PM
OMG those are great
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/05/17 02:22 AM
Alabama Race

This is another flare up of this long conflict, after Bannon succumbed to a palace coup he wants to demonstrate that he could derail GOP establishment effort. If he can show TP-like energy behind his movement, he quite likely will be able to dictate GOP agenda.

If Trump sides with Bannon, he will likely ride this wave into re-election. However, it is unlikely anything on his legislative agenda would happen. Plus, he will lose his majorities during next round.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 09/28/17 01:44 AM
Bannon won, his candidate ended up winning primaries as an underdog. GOP civil war just entered another hot phase.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/27/steve-bannon-alabama-republican-incumbents-2018-243233
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/30/17 01:38 AM
As of late, GOP can't even agree on keeping deficit in check. So what do they stand for now? More guns, jails and anti-abortion?
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/30/17 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by Sini
As of late, GOP can't even agree on keeping deficit in check. So what do they stand for now? More guns, jails and anti-abortion?


Something like that, yeah.

There is no greater political disaster than having one party control both houses of congress and the executive. Pendulum swinging harder and faster now, will be interesting to see the blowback from GOP failboating over next few years.

Interesting in the Chinese curse sense.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/30/17 02:36 PM
Disaster? Things are roaring along. Over 3% GDP growth in three consecutive quarters which we have not seen in 12 years, the stock market is about to crash through the 24,000 point mark, unemployment is way down, business and consumer confidence is rising.

On the other side of the aisle, you have a pair of sexual harassers in the form of Conyers and Franken.

I think Republicans have the better part of the bargain here.
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/30/17 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
Disaster? Things are roaring along. Over 3% GDP growth in three consecutive quarters which we have not seen in 12 years, the stock market is about to crash through the 24,000 point mark, unemployment is way down, business and consumer confidence is rising.

On the other side of the aisle, you have a pair of sexual harassers in the form of Conyers and Franken.

I think Republicans have the better part of the bargain here.


First, economy always lags well behind policy. If it was doing well now (it's not, for most people) it would be attributed by those who know a thing or two about economics to Obama's admin, not Trumps.

Second, you should really try looking at the bigger picture for once. The new tax plan is pretty horrid, and passing it one-sidedly will also quite possibly create huge backlash that does to the GOP what Obamacare did to the Dems - and might even be worse.

If the GOP has the better part of the bargain, well that might be true. The point here, is that all that good stuff applies only to them and a select, connected few. What happened to shrinking govt? Hopefully your memory isn't so short that you've already forgot about that important component. Enlarging govt while raising taxes on the bulk of us isn't exactly what was promised, nor will it win them any new friends. There will always be a few diehards, who can point out the sexual failures of people like Franken and Conyers, while somehow ignoring the Moores and Trumps of the world - but placing future electoral hopes on there being enough others with similar selective thinking is reminiscent of French proclamations of eventual victory because the Maginot Line is impenetrable.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 11/30/17 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Derid
Originally Posted by Owain
Disaster? Things are roaring along. Over 3% GDP growth in three consecutive quarters which we have not seen in 12 years, the stock market is about to crash through the 24,000 point mark, unemployment is way down, business and consumer confidence is rising.

On the other side of the aisle, you have a pair of sexual harassers in the form of Conyers and Franken.

I think Republicans have the better part of the bargain here.


First, economy always lags well behind policy. If it was doing well now (it's not, for most people) it would be attributed by those who know a thing or two about economics to Obama's admin, not Trumps.


Yeah this is the point I really don't understand. How can they just sit here and lie to everyone that Trump magically "turned around" the economy within a few months of his presidency where he hasn't really done all that much. The economy and unemployment were moving in the right direction under Obama's Presidency, and that took years.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/01/17 01:13 AM
Obama had eight years to show progress and failed. Trump is elected, changes policy, eliminates much of the excessive regulatory structure that choked the economy, and the economy responds positively.

I know you guys are still in denial about the election, and if you want to delude yourselves on this, be my guest, but you are only setting yourselves up for future electoral shock and dismay, because voters know bullshit when they smell it.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
Obama had eight years to show progress and failed. Trump is elected, changes policy, eliminates much of the excessive regulatory structure that choked the economy, and the economy responds positively.


Economy should be visualized as Titanic. You can turn wheel all the way, but it takes long time to change course. Even if you think that Trump steering in the right direction, it is too early to see anything but very minor changes. The ship could only turn that fast.

Also, what exactly what do you think constitutes "eliminates much of the excessive regulatory structure" is? He didn't even finish getting his nominees in. At best, if you are extremely charitable, you can credit him with initiating the process of rolling back regulations.

Last but not least, Obama failed at many things. Economy isn't one of them. At least with traditional definition - employment % and stock markets. Wages continue to stagnate, but that was true since even before Reagan.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by Goriom
How can they just sit here and lie to everyone that Trump magically "turned around" the economy within a few months of his presidency where he hasn't really done all that much.


One possible explanation is that Idiocracy has arrived. If Trump gets re-elected, I am heavily investing into electrolytes.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by Sini


Also, what exactly what do you think constitutes "eliminates much of the excessive regulatory structure" is?

There was this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/susand...y-cuts-the-cost-of-regulating-increases/
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:30 AM
And this:
https://www.npr.org/2017/02/24/517059327/trump-orders-agencies-to-reduce-regulations
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:32 AM
Resulting in this:
https://www.investors.com/politics/...-another-yuuuge-trump-promise-fulfilled/
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:33 AM
Then there was this,
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/8/trump-slashing-obamas-regulation-binge-study/
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:34 AM
And this;
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...c-6d68-11e7-96ab-5f38140b38cc_story.html
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:40 AM
Just because you don't know about it, that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Ignorance is not an advantage.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 04:49 AM
Obama never saw 3% annual growth in 8 years. The Trump administration oversaw 3 consecutive quarters over 3%.

Democrats can deny this if they like, but voters dislike liars, and they reward success.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 07:53 PM
7 posts in a row with no summaries or content? Owain, please don't shitpost like that.

If you want me to read your links, summarize why. It can be a quote from the article. It can be a summary sentence.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/02/17 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
Just because you don't know about it, that doesn't mean it isn't happening.


I assume we are still talking about regulations and Trump's role in cutting them. Your original premise is that Trump meaningfully cut regulations and this is one of the reasons stock market keeps rallying.

Now, regulations isn't actually a monolithic concept. It isn't like "Doctor told me to cut down on salt to help my blood pressure". There are all kinds of regulations, environmental and financial are ones commonly understood in your context of "cutting regulations". Some environmental regulations are "If you burn coal, don't dump sulfur in 10 mile radius of your stack". These are based on science and are good. We don't want sulfur everywhere, even if allowing this would make burning coal more profitable. Some environmental regulations are based on pork barrel politics, such as adding ethanol to fuel. These are bad. The same true for financial regulations - you shouldn't be able to write NINJA loans, then repackage and insure them as AAA.

You can't say, look some regulation somewhere was cut, markets rally, therefore Trump cutting regulations caused markets to rally. It is so flimsy, it isn't even an argument.

For example, one of your links states: "The White House has frozen or withdrawn hundreds of planned rules". To me, planned, means they weren't even implemented.

So what regulations did trump already cut, and how did they contribute to markets rallying?
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/03/17 01:41 AM
The posts are self explanatory. Trump has undertaken a comprehensive program of deregulation that is on going. The links quantify the savings already experienced by businesses. In response to the ongoing deregulation, companies have renewed confidence, which further serves to stimulate the economy.

Obama's final year GDP growth was 1.8%, and dropping. Trump reversed that trend, leading to the current 3 consecutive quarters of 3%+ growth.

Your spin in unconvincing.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/05/17 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
The posts are self explanatory.


Sorry, my universal translator keeps babbling something about Darmok at Tanagra. It doesn't seem to speak your language. Try putting more effort into your posts so you don't end up drive-by shitposting with broken links.

Quote
Trump has undertaken a comprehensive program of deregulation that is on going. The links quantify the savings already experienced by businesses.


Use following forum feature "["quote"]" "["/quote"]" and insert relevant text. Because the links that did work said nothing of the like. Not even close.

So citation required.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/05/17 02:55 AM
Learn to read.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/05/17 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
Learn to read.

Do you also expect me to be able to hear voices in your head in addition to seeing links that are only in your head?
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/05/17 02:59 AM
If you need tutoring, cut and paste a paragraph that is beyond your comprehension, and I'll explain it using small words.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/05/17 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
If you need tutoring, cut and paste a paragraph that is beyond your comprehension, and I'll explain it using small words.


Yes please. I need you to explain to me, with supporting evidence, how/what "links quantify the savings already experienced by businesses." Thank you for being so helpful.

Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/05/17 03:10 AM
The articles I linked cover that. Read them. If you have an example of text from an article that is beyond you, post it here.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/05/17 02:28 PM
Mueller's looking into his finances now.

oops, wrong thread.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/05/17 05:40 PM
I hope Meuller didn't assign that to the guy he just fired for biased and unprofessional behavior.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/...gent-over-possible-anti-trump-texts.html
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/06/17 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
The articles I linked cover that. Read them. If you have an example of text from an article that is beyond you, post it here.

I failed to see anything like that in any links, and you offered to explain it to me using small words.

Please follow up on your offer.

Oh wait, you can't, because you got nothing, because you don't understand what is going on. But hey, keep trying to avoid admitting the obvious, it isn't like you have any credibility left to damage.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/06/17 03:07 AM
To give you a hand. Here is an actual example of Trump's deregulation. Trump administration pulls overtime pay rule. This rule was to come into effect this year and was cancelled. This is an old article, this is done deal by now.

Quote
The Trump administration on Tuesday pushed forward with its bid to undo an Obama administration rule to extend mandatory overtime pay to 4.2 million workers. The rule would have doubled to $47,000 the maximum salary a worker can earn and still be eligible for mandatory overtime pay under federal wage law.


Current threshold is $23,660 per year, or below starvation for most places. Basically, there is no mandatory overtime pay for anyone even making full time minimum wage. Because you know, paying $24K/year for 80h+ work weeks is good for the economy. Because misclassifying employees as contractors is good for the economy. Bring sweatshops back to make America Grain Again!

Down with evil red tape, and keep up the good work, right?
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/06/17 06:00 AM
Reading is fundamental. Comprehension is important as well. Alas, you have none.

Were the following paragraphs from the third link beyond you? Too many syllables?

"While there have been some hiccups, overall the Trump administration is on track to finish the first phase (of his regulatory reform program) with $645 million in net annual regulatory savings."

That might not sound like much in a federal budget usually denominated in the trillions of dollars. But consider this: During President Obama's years in office, more than 22,700 regulations were imposed on Americans at an astounding cost to American consumers, businesses and workers of "more than $120 billion each and every year," wrote Heritage Foundation Fellow Diane Katz earlier this year.

"The actual costs are far greater," writes Katz, "both because the impacts have not been fully quantified for a significant number of rules, and because many of the worst effects — the loss of freedom and opportunity — are incalculable."

https://www.investors.com/politics/...-another-yuuuge-trump-promise-fulfilled/

Now if you want to know what regulations were eliminated that resulted in those savings, contact Investor's Business Daily.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/06/17 06:03 AM
From the Washington Times story,

"President Trump’s assault on red tape has saved businesses nearly $4 billion per year compared with former President Barack Obama’s pace of imposing regulations, a new study found Tuesday.

Final rule costs during Mr. Trump’s first six months in office will cost U.S. businesses about $378 million per year, compared with $4.2 billion for the same period of Mr. Obama’s presidency, according to the conservative American Action Forum."

So, are you just illiterate, or too lazy to read the articles at the links provided?
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/06/17 06:07 AM
Business is clearly encouraged by the on going reductions in regulatory burdens, which has served to stimulate the economy in the last 3 quarters as Obama was unable to do during the eight years of his administration.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/06/17 10:38 PM
More winning...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...at-manufacturing-jobs-grow-fastest-pace-
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/07/17 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
Too many syllables?


No, too much bullshit.

Lets read that article together. Here is the link you provided.

Wikipedia on Investors.com
Quote
During the 2016 presidential election in the U.S., IBD was one of two polls that consistently showed Donald Trump in the lead.


So they are either best pollsters in the US, or true believers. Fact checkers give them right-leaning rating, with mixed factuals.

So what do they say?

Quote
How did Trump do? "While there have been some hiccups, overall the Trump administration is on track to finish the first phase (of his regulatory reform program) with $645 million in net annual regulatory savings."


Net regulatory savings. Well, they are speaking budget here. So cutting IRS budget to 0$ would also be a net regulatory saving. However, net regulatory saving says nothing about net effect on economy.

Quote
That might not sound like much in a federal budget usually denominated in the trillions of dollars. But consider this: During President Obama's years in office, more than 22,700 regulations were imposed on Americans at an astounding cost to American consumers, businesses and workers of "more than $120 billion each and every year," wrote Heritage Foundation Fellow Diane Katz earlier this year.


Sounds awful, right? $120 billion each year. Wait, according to whom? Heritage Foundation . Some key people there are part of Trump's team. So this is according to people close to Trump.

So what do they say? They actually say any of what article claims? Here is "study" that is being cited. It isn't peer reviewed, so it is survey or whitepaper at best. However, $120 billion is cited to another Heritage "study". Only there numbers, if you read tables, are only $22 billion a year, and $176 is total since 2001 , and that is total impact of all regulation per year.

Clearly, "more than $120 billion each and every year" is not true according to their own sources. So this figure is misused and misrepresented despite being produced by the same organization. Bad information. Bad "study".

Lets keep reading.

Quote
We're not singling out Obama here, although he was particularly bad by whatever gauge you might care to use. Even so, Democrats and Republicans alike have pledged to reduce the regulatory burden, but very little ever got done.


So they are now actually saying it wasn't all Obama. It was also people before Obama. Another way to understand this is that Obama's administration approach to regulation wasn't atypical.

Lets keep reading.

Quote
That's why AAF analyst Dan Goldbeck was prompted to write, "From almost any perspective, President Trump's Executive Order 13,771, Reducing Regulation and Controlling Regulatory Costs, marked one of the most significant developments in regulatory policy in decades," adding that it was the "first time in United States history that the executive branch has established a regulatory budget."


Does Dan say any of this? Apparently yes, but there is key detail missing from the quote:

Quote
OMB spelled out the rules affected by the order. The core parameters are as follows:

* Agencies only need to tally up final rules published after noon on January 20, 2017.
* The EO only applies to executive agency rules that the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) deem to be “significant” under EO 12,866.
* It exempts rules related to direct national security or emergency concerns and those explicitly directed by a judicial or statutory mandate.
* Agencies can, via written requests to OMB, transfer savings from other agencies.
* Agencies can include savings from legislatively repealed or revised rules. Thus, they can use savings from such actions as the 14 rules repealed by under the Congressional Review Act (CRA) earlier this year.
* If an agency is not in compliance by the end of the fiscal year, they must submit a report to OMB detailing how they plan on coming into compliance. There do not appear to be any significant sanctions for non-compliance thus far.


So turns out, this massive deregulation executive order is asking all agencies to voluntarily scrap not yet implemented rules. Trump would call this FAKE NEWS.

Nothing in your article credibly estimates impact on markets. They only attempt was misquoting or misrepresenting their own data.



Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/07/17 02:11 AM
If you are actually interested in finding out what is going on with regulations, try this tracker:

https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation-in-the-trump-era/
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/07/17 03:03 AM
Well, performance is what counts. For eight years, we suffered from anemic economic performance under the Obama administration, which finished 2016 at 1.8% gdp growth.

Trump is elected, and among other things, promised to reduce the government regulatory burden to stimulate the economy. He follows through on his promise, and a year later, the economy expands at 3%+ rate for 3 successive quarters, the best performance in 12 years.

So, instead if celebrating the improved performance in the economy, the left complains because it is happening during a Republican administration.

What kind of assholes do that?

Liberal assholes, that's who.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/07/17 02:33 PM
One person makes claims and provides sources to back them up.

the other person uses their "feelings" and resorts to name calling.

hmmm
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/07/17 03:09 PM
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Derid Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/07/17 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
Well, performance is what counts. For eight years, we suffered from anemic economic performance under the Obama administration, which finished 2016 at 1.8% gdp growth.

Trump is elected, and among other things, promised to reduce the government regulatory burden to stimulate the economy. He follows through on his promise, and a year later, the economy expands at 3%+ rate for 3 successive quarters, the best performance in 12 years.

So, instead if celebrating the improved performance in the economy, the left complains because it is happening during a Republican administration.

What kind of assholes do that?

Liberal assholes, that's who.


I think it's more analogous to a village chief in ancient times, that sacrificed his people to the "gods" with the promise that it would rain. Sometimes, after said sacrifice, it would in fact rain.

Crediting Trump with any economic improvement is like crediting Obama with the great crash. Or even laying credit for the crash solely on Bush, because the seeds were sown during Clinton. I really wish people would stop examining the world's phenomena solely through partisan lenses, the universe doesn't care about anyone's politics. It moves on it's own principles.

I checked some of those articles linked earlier, it was all opinion/editorial.

Look, it doesn't matter how much you like Trump. The fact is something as large and interconnected as an economy doesn't move quickly. It isn't agile. Even where various markets have seemingly sudden ups and downs, that is a result of many years of accumulating circumstances. I'll also note a recurring criticism I toted during the Obama admin during the "recovery" - that is, the way GDP is measured now includes a great many things that actually do not reflect generated wealth. It's quite possible for GDP to grow, without reflecting significant gains in most of the Main st economy.

Is that the case here? Although it looks like it at a glance, I am not totally sure. Our political situation and long term economic outlook has been too depressing the past couple of years for me to really go through the numbers and cobble together an actual analysis. Regardless, if it is the case, it would be something influenced by Obama-era policies, not Trump. Because the same principle applies whether discussing positive or negative developments - that is, it takes time for policy to influence the real world on a large scale.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/07/17 04:58 PM
It guess it must be entirely by coincidence that we had flat growth under Obama for 8 years, and as soon as Trump was elected and reduced regulatory burdens that stifle business, we suddenly see better performance than has been seen in 12 years.

Is it any wonder that Democrats are experiencing an electoral collapse nation wide? Voters are not buying that nonsense.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/08/17 02:36 AM
Owain, we should go back to talking about your feelings. Everything else simply doesn't support your position. Both facts and attribution of facts are plain wrong.

The facts paint bleak picture - both deregulation and tax reform on the balance will end up hurting Main Street. Not right away, as economy moves slowly, but eventually. This is because like Communism, trickle-down simply doesn't work. Especially when you have to deficit spend to do it.

If you actually followed the link I provided (https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation-in-the-trump-era/), on the balance it hurts everyday guys. Sure, some of it is simply great, like the Lowering Renewable Fuel Standards (less ethanol in fuel, fuck yeah!) but then there are Internet Privacy Rule repeal (Nullification of a rule requiring internet service providers to explicitly obtain customers' approval to use and share their information), Firearms Prohibition for the Mentally Disabled (Nullification of a rule prohibiting the possession of firearms by the mentally ill), and so on.

Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/08/17 02:51 AM
Well, I guess we'll just have to see how things develop going forward. If the last three quarters were a fluke, we'll find out soon enough. If the economy continues to accelerate, I'm sure you guys will be the first to congratulate the President, because only liberal assholes would criticize the President for succeeding to improve things for all Americans.

If you don't it won't matter, because voters will reward the President and the Republican party themselves.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/08/17 05:50 PM
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/08/17 05:59 PM
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 01:53 AM
He is educated, speaks Russian, and agrees with Putin when it comes to same sex marriage.

So what?
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
He is educated, speaks Russian, and agrees with Putin when it comes to same sex marriage.

So what?


you forgot that he diddles little children.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by Goriom
Originally Posted by Owain
He is educated, speaks Russian, and agrees with Putin when it comes to same sex marriage.

So what?


you forgot that he diddles little children.

He likes his girls too young. 16 is hardly a child.

To me, much more interesting to see how feminism stretched definitions to the point that people stopped paying attention. On the right, accusations of rape are now largely ignored. Mainstream is getting there.

Interestingly, Trump could probably rape a Chinese tourist in the middle of the day on the White House lawn and his support base would automatically assume it is left smear campaign.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 03:49 AM
So say the unsubstantiated allegations, unless you have access to proof.

Do you? Have access to proof? Other than the forged yearbook?

https://nypost.com/2017/12/08/roy-moore-accuser-admits-altering-yearbook-entry/
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 03:57 AM
Moore himself never denied relationships with 16 year old girls. This is not illegal, as they are of age of consent. I never claimed there is any evidence of any kind violence or rape.

So you have to ask, is grown man having consensual relationships with teenagers a morally acceptable thing? Personally, I don't care, but the guy is running on a bible-thumping platform. So that makes him a hypocrite.

It is not unlike having ISIS leader getting filmed enjoying double cheeseburger with extra bacon and a beer. Not wrong to me, but against subject's declared values.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 04:59 AM
Moore seems to be denying the allegations here.

What are you looking at?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/11/politics/roy-moore-allegations/index.html
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
So say the unsubstantiated allegations, unless you have access to proof.

Do you? Have access to proof? Other than the forged yearbook?

https://nypost.com/2017/12/08/roy-moore-accuser-admits-altering-yearbook-entry/



Ahh i see you are an avid Fox News reader. Did you know they had to take down the word "forgery" since it's not true and is considered libel?
http://thehill.com/homenews/media/3...-moore-accuser-yearbook-forgery-headline

But I guess in alternative facts world, you wouldn't even believe experts now, right?
http://www.wcvb.com/article/roy-moore-accuser-yearbook-entry-notes-handwriting/14390831
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 03:32 PM
Handwriting experts had already identified the sevens in the date written in the yearbook as having been written by a hand different than Moore's.

Busted, she's now trying to say that although she forged that part of the entry, we should believe that the rest of it is valid.

There is a legal doctrine that covers matters like this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsus_in_uno,_falsus_in_omnibus
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 03:39 PM
Why then does her lawyer refuse to release the yearbook for independent handwriting analysis?

To ask the question is to answer it.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
Handwriting experts had already identified the sevens in the date written in the yearbook as having been written by a hand different than Moore's.


Citation needed

Originally Posted by Owain
Busted, she's now trying to say that although she forged that part of the entry, we should believe that the rest of it is valid.


Citation needed.
Annotation =/= forgery
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/09/17 05:52 PM
Citations provided.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/23639/watch-moores-lawyer-calls-yearbook-be-examined-ryan-saavedra

Only after pointing this out does she admit to having made the entry herself.

https://nypost.com/2017/12/08/roy-moore-accuser-admits-altering-yearbook-entry/

Falsus in unus, falsus in omnibus.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/13/17 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
Citations provided.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/23639/watch-moores-lawyer-calls-yearbook-be-examined-ryan-saavedra

Only after pointing this out does she admit to having made the entry herself.

https://nypost.com/2017/12/08/roy-moore-accuser-admits-altering-yearbook-entry/

Falsus in unus, falsus in omnibus.


Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, what a way to live your life. I think I am starting to finally understand the way you think though.

I like Latin as well, my favorite Latin term is "Fiat justitia ruat cælum" and I have a feeling last night was an example of whats to come for republicans that have sworn fealty to this president. Still, it's kind of sad that almost 50% of Alabamians(?) think electing a pedo to the senate is perfectly ok.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/13/17 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by Goriom
Originally Posted by Owain
He is educated, speaks Russian, and agrees with Putin when it comes to same sex marriage.

So what?


you forgot that he diddles little children.

He likes his girls too young. 16 14 is a child.


ftfy
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/13/17 03:05 PM
It's not my legal principle, doofus. I'm just reporting it. Complain to the legal profession about the last several hundred years it's been in use.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/13/17 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
It's not my legal principle, doofus. I'm just reporting it. Complain to the legal profession about the last several hundred years it's been in use.


Back to name calling I see. I am a doofus because I don't know much about a legal principle that has been rejected in many cases. At least I don't turn a blind eye to a pedophile and sexual predator.

"Although many common law jurisdictions have rejected a categorical application of the rule, the doctrine has survived in some American courts."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsus_in_uno,_falsus_in_omnibus


Can we apply "Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus" to Trump for lying about never meeting the women he supposedly sexually assaulted? Which by his own admission he has since hes been known to "grab them by the pussy" or walk in on them while they are getting dressed.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...users-after-he-claimed-he-never-met-them
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/13/17 07:19 PM
If you don't want to be called a doofus, stop acting like a doofus.

There is still no evidence that Moore is either a pedophile or a sexual preditor, unless you are sitting on some no one else is aware of.

By his own admission, Trump took part in consensual behavior with women. Nothing wrong with that.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/13/17 07:27 PM
But really, Goriam, stop being such a bloody hypocrite.
Originally Posted by Goriom
Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, what a way to live your life. I think I am starting to finally understand the way you think though.

You didn't mean this remark about the way I think to be complimentary, but it is what earned you the name of doofus for blaming me for the existence of a legal principle that very much applies in this case.

Of course the maxim should not be applied categorically in face of supporting evidence, but there is no supporting evidence in this case. So, since the accuser has been shown false in one, her credibility is justifiably tainted, and anything she says should be disregarded in the absence of supporting evidence.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/15/17 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Owain

There is still no evidence that Moore is either a pedophile or a sexual preditor, unless you are sitting on some no one else is aware of.


If you are objective, there is a lot of evidence of dubious behavior and if you subscribe to Christian morals, a lot of evidence of amoral behavior. However, applying "more likely than not" standard of proof - there isn't enough to conclude Moore is a sexual predator.

Separately, if you believe in rule of law, there is lots of lawlessness. He disregarded court ruling on multiple occasions. That alone disqualifies him for being a senator.

Thankfully, he lost so we can leave it at that.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/15/17 01:37 AM
Evidence based on agitprop from political rivals?

Unconvincing.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/15/17 01:48 AM
The qualifications necessary to serve in the Senate, for anyone who doesn't know.

No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

Constitution of the United States, Article 1, Section 3, Clause 3.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/16/17 02:40 AM
Not that you will read this, but here is article explaining why Moore would have been disqualified from any public office:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/the-lawlessness-of-roy-moore/541467/

Quote
Small wonder that, in 2016, the chief justice directed Alabama probate judges to ignore the Supreme Court’s recent decision legalizing same-sex marriages and to continue enforcing the state’s ban on such unions by denying marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Once more, he was brought up on judicial-ethics charges and, in September of last year, was suspended from office.


As a judge, you don't get to decide that you don't like some laws and ignore them.



Weren't you just recently attacking Hillary for emails, because what she did was against the law? How do you reconcile that stand with support for Moore?
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/16/17 02:14 PM
I don't support Moore to the extent that as he was running for Senate in Alabama, and as such, that was none of my business, as I can't vote in the state of Alabama. That is only the business of the residents of the state, and they decided not to elect him.

Others for whom it was none of their business decided to lie about Moore. I dislike liars, so I offered facts instead of lies.

Liberals would be better off if only they wouldn't lie so much out of rank partisanship.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/16/17 02:17 PM
I rechecked the Constitution, and you are still wrong. Moore remains qualified to serve in the Senate according to the highest law in the land. Your opinion still doesn't carry the force of law.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/16/17 02:54 PM
Unsurprisingly, you are being your usual dense self.

Would you hire an ex-plumber that was repeatedly fired for incompetence to write plumbing standards?

Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/16/17 03:56 PM
Again, for those slow in the uptake, since I can't vote in Alabama, it's none of my business.

But you spoke of qualifications. By law, Moore remains qualified for those who can legally vote in Alabama. Whether they would vote for him or not (and it was a close vote) depends on factors unrelated to his legal qualifications.

If he were truly unqualified to run, that would have been the first challenge to his candidacy, don't you think?
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by Sini
Not that you will read this, but here is article explaining why Moore would have been disqualified from any public office:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/the-lawlessness-of-roy-moore/541467/

Quote
Small wonder that, in 2016, the chief justice directed Alabama probate judges to ignore the Supreme Court’s recent decision legalizing same-sex marriages and to continue enforcing the state’s ban on such unions by denying marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Once more, he was brought up on judicial-ethics charges and, in September of last year, was suspended from office.


As a judge, you don't get to decide that you don't like some laws and ignore them.



Weren't you just recently attacking Hillary for emails, because what she did was against the law? How do you reconcile that stand with support for Moore?


For someone who talks a lot about politics, you are a little dense when it comes to the finer points. There is nothing stopping him or anyone from being elected to the office of an Senator in the federal level.
In fact you can be a convicted felon and be elected. As a matter of fact you can be a convicted felon and still be in prison and get elected.
Instead of starting arguments over assumed facts like usual, try some critical thinking.

Even Hillary knows this.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 12:40 AM
I am not sure why are you trying to turn this discussion into annual pedantic meeting of pedants.

When I spoke about candidate's qualifications and you retort about constitutional qualifiers, you are intentionally talking past my points.

Sure, constitutionally, he is qualified. Nobody spoke about this until you brought it up.

However, there is a very clear questions of competency. That you are trying to dodge by willfully misunderstanding what I said.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Sini
I am not sure why are you trying to turn this discussion into annual pedantic meeting of pedants.

When I spoke about candidate's qualifications and you retort about constitutional qualifiers, you are intentionally talking past my points.

Sure, constitutionally, he is qualified. Nobody spoke about this until you brought it up.

However, there is a very clear questions of competency. That you are trying to dodge by willfully misunderstanding what I said.



You Said "Separately, if you believe in rule of law, there is lots of lawlessness. He disregarded court ruling on multiple occasions. That alone disqualifies him for being a senator."

So you brought it up. Nice deflection.
You said certain things disqualifies him. You have been corrected and are now butt hurt.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 01:48 AM
The Constitution represents the highest law in the land. If you believe in the rule of law, you would accept that regardless of your mistaken opinion, Moore remains qualified to serve if he were ever elected.

Words have meaning, and the points you have brought up have no bearing upon his qualifications under the law.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 02:23 PM
Are you still trying to argue literalism?

I said, "Separately, if you believe in rule of law, there is lots of lawlessness. He disregarded court ruling on multiple occasions. That alone disqualifies him for being a senator."

I stand by this comment. Your interpretation of my words: " That alone [constitutionally] disqualifies him for being a senator" is not reasonable.

Failing at being pedantic with contrived semantic arguments is the new low for the fever swamp crew.

---

Personally, I find it amusing that the same crew that was tea party supporters are now Trump devotees. Before that, they were Randians. Never mind that Moore, the guy that illegally used government to do evangelism is pretty much anti-thesis of any of these ideologies. He is on "their team", and damn the torpedoes of reason.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 03:56 PM
If that alone disqualified Moore, why wasn't he removed from the ballot on those grounds?

Probably because he remained qualified.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 05:48 PM
Disqualify
[dis-kwol-uh-fahy]

verb (used with object), disqualified, disqualifying.
1. to deprive of qualification or fitness; render unfit *; incapacitate.
2. to deprive of legal, official, or other rights or privileges;** declare ineligible or unqualified.
3. Sports. to deprive of the right to participate in or win a contest because of a violation of the rules.

* What I am talking about.
** What you are talking about.

If you are going for pedantic argument, at least make sure you are on a solid ground first. Otherwise you end up a failed pedant, and this is worse than illiterate grammar nazi.


Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 08:18 PM
In your opinion, he is disqualified.

What does that get you? If you are a resident of Alabama, it would have allowed you to vote for someone else other than Moore, and that's it. If you are not a resident of Alabama, it doesn't give you shit.

On the other hand, if Moore would have truly not been qualified to run for Senate, anyone in Alabama would have been able to have him removed from the ballot.

That is the difference between knowing the difference between qualified and unqualified. I have that going for me. You don't.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 09:34 PM
Owain, it is good thing you don't have any credibility left to damage, or this episode would have severely diminished it. Especially cringe-worthy is your follow up with 'oh but you can't vote there, so your opinion doesn't matter'. You admitted you can't either and this didn't stop you from voicing your opinion on this subject.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/17/17 10:00 PM
At least my posts are of some functional use that can be applied by anyone from any state with respect to those running for office, Senate, or otherwise. If a candidate is not qualified by law, anyone from within the affected jurisdiction can have that candidate removed from the ballot.

You, on the other hand, have succeeded in expending many words that in the final analysis, are of no value to anyone. Really, what have you accomplished? "Vote for the candidate you like best", which is what people will be doing anyway.

I think that is a useful rule of thumb that can be applied to liberalism in general. A lot of talk, but in the end, nothing of use.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Sini
Disqualify
[dis-kwol-uh-fahy]

verb (used with object), disqualified, disqualifying.
1. to deprive of qualification or fitness; render unfit *; incapacitate.
2. to deprive of legal, official, or other rights or privileges;** declare ineligible or unqualified.
3. Sports. to deprive of the right to participate in or win a contest because of a violation of the rules.

* What I am talking about.
** What you are talking about.

If you are going for pedantic argument, at least make sure you are on a solid ground first. Otherwise you end up a failed pedant, and this is worse than illiterate grammar nazi.




"That alone disqualifies him for being a senator."

You said it disqualifies him from a senator. It doesn't. In your opinion he shouldn't be a senator based on what you think a senator should be.
Votes are how they can or cannot be a senator. Opinion and law can be confusing for some.
The facts are he can be. Only a few things disqualify a person from being a senator and all your examples do not apply.

You are taking butthurt to a new level.

This is how SJW's argue.

Please go on to another useless topic.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 05:02 AM
Sini, you miss the entire point of my comment about not being able to vote in the jurisdiction. My point was that I really didn't support Moore as a candidate for Senate. Why should I? I can't vote for him, and he wouldn't represent me even if he were elected.

Assuming you aren't a legal voter in Alabama, neither can you, so what have you accomplished other than a demonstration of ignorance?

What I do oppose is jackwagons saying silly things that simply aren't true. Such as your foolish statement that Moore is unqualified to serve in the Senate.

Statements contrary to fact should always be contradicted.

So consider yourself contradicted.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 02:16 PM
Out of curiosity, do you think someone should be elected to the Senate of this country that defies federal court orders, is an extreme homophobe, who harks back to the days where slavery existed, and who is more than likely a sexual predator.

I am asking for your opinion, don't try and deflect.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 03:03 PM
I would probably not vote for such a person, but that still doesn't mean the person is unqualified.

Words have meaning, and with respect to the Senate, the qualifications for serving in the Senate are clearly defined.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 03:05 PM
If you were to say something stupidly incorrect about Adolf Hitler, I would call you on that, too. Not because I'm a fan of Adolf Hitler, but rather I'm opposed to statements contrary to fact.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Goriom
Out of curiosity, do you think someone should be elected to the Senate of this country that defies federal court orders, is an extreme homophobe, who harks back to the days where slavery existed, and who is more than likely a sexual predator.

I am asking for your opinion, don't try and deflect.

Out of curiosity, upon what do you base your accusations?

And when it comes to federal court orders, some deserve to be defied. It depends upon the context.
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
Originally Posted by Goriom
Out of curiosity, do you think someone should be elected to the Senate of this country that defies federal court orders, is an extreme homophobe, who harks back to the days where slavery existed, and who is more than likely a sexual predator.

I am asking for your opinion, don't try and deflect.

Out of curiosity, upon what do you base your accusations?

And when it comes to federal court orders, some deserve to be defied. It depends upon the context.


A non-answer. I refuse to answer any of your questions until you answer mine.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 07:21 PM
Read my previous response, or must I again call you doofus?
Posted By: Goriom Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Owain
Read my previous response, or must I again call you doofus?


Another non-response. I'll ask again

do you think someone should be elected to the US Senate that defies federal court orders, is an extreme homophobe, who harks back to the days where slavery existed, and who is more than likely a sexual predator?
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/18/17 09:42 PM
It is not up to me who is elected, and who is not elected. That is decided by the collective will of those who can legally vote for a candidate. The best I can offer is what I stated. I would probably not vote for such a person, but that is not absolute. It would depend upon the other candidate who might be worse.

For example, Trump wasn't my first choice, but Hillary was far worse

But if you are talking about Moore, I don't see that those accusations have been established as true. In the absence of evidence, I have learned to ignore accusations from the left, because the left lies. The left admits they lie. Those on the left brag about their lies.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/19/17 01:58 AM
Owain, you do have an opinion, don't you? Or are you like boneless chicken or zen master, no shred of any such thing left in your mortal shell?
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/19/17 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by Helemoto
Originally Posted by Sini
Disqualify
[dis-kwol-uh-fahy]

verb (used with object), disqualified, disqualifying.
1. to deprive of qualification or fitness; render unfit *; incapacitate.
2. to deprive of legal, official, or other rights or privileges;** declare ineligible or unqualified.
3. Sports. to deprive of the right to participate in or win a contest because of a violation of the rules.

* What I am talking about.
** What you are talking about.

If you are going for pedantic argument, at least make sure you are on a solid ground first. Otherwise you end up a failed pedant, and this is worse than illiterate grammar nazi.




"That alone disqualifies him for being a senator."

You said it disqualifies him from a senator. It doesn't. In your opinion he shouldn't be a senator based on what you think a senator should be.
Votes are how they can or cannot be a senator. Opinion and law can be confusing for some.
The facts are he can be. Only a few things disqualify a person from being a senator and all your examples do not apply.

You are taking butthurt to a new level.

This is how SJW's argue.

Please go on to another useless topic.


Hele, you got me. Dictionary use of words, what a crime against common decency. Correct application of English language in an online debate? It is out there with pedophiles and SJWs.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/19/17 02:14 AM
The problem is not the dictionary definition. It's in applying that definition in an area in which it is inapplicable.

The definition in the Constitution takes precedence, otherwise anyone could have removed Moore from the ballot with trivial ease.
Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/19/17 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by Sini
Owain, you do have an opinion, don't you? Or are you like boneless chicken or zen master, no shred of any such thing left in your mortal shell?

Yes, I do have an opinion, and I gave it, but an intelligent person takes all factors into account, which is why knowledge of the other candidate is a necessary part of the question.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/19/17 04:02 AM
"Federal Office Holders

The Constitution requires that members of the House and Senate fulfill three requirements:

All members of the House must be at least 25 years old, and members of the Senate must be at least 30 years old.
Members of the House must have been a U.S. citizen for at least seven years, and members of the Senate must have been a U.S. citizen for at least nine years.
They have to be an "inhabitant" of the state "when elected."
As a result, according to the Congressional Research Service, committing a crime cannot constitutionally disqualify someone from serving in Congress. And the state has no say in determining whether or not someone is qualified to serve in the House or Senate:

CRS: [S]ince a State does not have the authority to add qualifications for federal offices, the fact of conviction, even for a felony offense, could not be used to keep a candidate off of the ballot under State law either as a direct disqualification of convicted felons from holding or being a candidate for office, or as a disqualification of one who is no longer a “qualified elector” in the State. Once a person meets the three constitutional qualifications of age, citizenship and inhabitancy in the State when elected, that person, if duly elected, is constitutionally “qualified” to serve in Congress, even if a convicted felon.

Prison is not a bar to running for federal office, either. In 1798, Rep. Matthew Lyon ran for Congress from prison and won. He assumed his seat in Congress after serving four months in prison for "libeling" President John Adams. An effort was made to expel Lyon from the House, but it failed.

Ultimately, it is up to the House or Senate chamber to determine whether or not an elected official is qualified to serve if a challenge is raised."

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/11/felons-in-office/
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/20/17 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
It's in applying that definition in an area in which it is inapplicable.


This is an empty assertion.

Have you paused to consider that there might be other qualifications other than constitutional qualifications?

What I said is entirely reasonable, within accepted use norms, and conforming to dictionary definition. You on other hand latched to a specific definition, and keep insisting that I must have meant that one thing.

Lets pause here to consider. Did you really think "No you must have meant X when you said Y, and X is wrong" type of illogical retort would work?

If yes:
Originally Posted by Owain
It's in applying that definition in an area in which it is inapplicable.


I did not fill any applications. You are making stuff up.


Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/20/17 06:18 PM
What you said is entirely reasonable as it applies to you. But you want to apply that standard to everyone based on no evidence.

Who does that?

Narcissists do that.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/21/17 12:46 AM
How does it feel when all of your arguments are taken behind a shed and shot?

Posted By: Owain Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/21/17 02:00 AM
You'd know more about that than would I, I think.
Posted By: Sini Re: GOP internal civil war - 12/23/17 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Owain
[Linked Image]


Well, if you say so.
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