Some of these would be fucking hilarious if it wasn't being done with my money. Linky

What is your point? So you are saying that because they don't fit the social norms therefore they should be marginalized?

America, where you are only an American if we say so, and if you aint like us, then we aint saying so.

Do I think a fair percentage of them are nut bags and fruit jobs? Sure, but they have a point. Economic disparity that has run rampant since Regan and his boys came to power has tilted the American Dream on its axis.

Just remember Kaotic, you and I, and most of us here, we are not the Norm either...

*note* I apologize at the loose grammar, sense of structure and meager ranting this became. It is simply some of my own thoughts related to this movement and the points they are trying to make.. by no means do I think it's wrong in trying to protest what you believe in but it's what these people believe in that get me going.. *

I'm the norm and I knew that having 8 kids and living off government cheese was not only bad, it's embarrassing..

I'm the norm and I knew that taking money in the form of unemployment instead of finding a job was not only bad, it's embarrassing..

I'm the norm and I knew that living off of the taxpayers for my worker's comp case, even while I'm fully able to work, was wrong, it's also embarrassing..

I'm the norm and I knew that if my parents couldn't pay for college I would by working jobs until 1-2am each night to foot the bill..

You see here.. Most of this is a social defect called morals..

When in this country did being a over-extended by credit, flashy have everything, cocky son of a bitch who really didn't need that second speed boat become the norm?

When in this country did being an overweight, cock sucking whore with diabetes get placed on a pedestal?

When in this country did being a lose it all drunk, who beats his wife and kids get placed on a pedestal?

Our countries issue is that we have been so use to blaming other things, people and issues and not taking responsibility for ourselves that have caused this type of movement..

Really? The girl can't go to college because daddy won't pay for it? Oh boy, cry me a fucking river. I never did finish college because I couldn't afford to pay myself and yet with all my determination, ability to learn and adapt I'm made quite a good life for myself instead of pissing and moaning about how someone "else" couldn't do it for me.

Grow the fuck up, take some responsibility for your actions and by all accord quit blaming your ills/problems/hemorrhoids on someone else..

Jesus Fucking Christ In Heaven.. Fuck, fuck fuck..

Wake up America.. the time with small unemployment rate is over, get over and join the rest of the world with 8-20% unemployment rate.

NO

Do not get me wrong, but IMHO USA lived with a higher patamar over all other countries in the world after WWII, the new century and the BIRCS taking place where you guys have no competition, it´s now normal to have the same unemployment rate as the other countries, even you guys have a strong internal economy. I know it's a gross simplification of the problem but to me seems reasonable.

And like you guys from South USA like to say, have a natural selection is good , only the strong will survive darwinmism FTW, its not your problem that people have no jobs or health care or whatever they need.

For own experience here in Brazil, darwinism doesnt work.. because the birth rates of marginalized people are too much high.. so the things just get worse to a level that is unsafe to walk a night or at same places of the cities.

Everybody doesn't need to go to college. The world needs ditch diggers and waitresses.

So before Regan there were no Really rich people???

Cornelius Vanderbilt may have been the richest person ever.
When he died he was said to have 1 out of every 20 dollars in circulation and in the stock market. So I assume Regan traveled back in time to do this.

You are right they have the right to do what they are doing. They will get no results, this isn't some third world despot.

There has always been a economic disparity in America, thats why there is an American Dream because everyone has a chance to become one. Everyone keeps saying the gap gets bigger but never see any proof. I am sure you can find some.

I believe in the redistribution of wealth.

I should be able to keep anything I can pillage from anyone.

Shadowbane for the win

I'm currently doing everything in my power to help others get jobs, both in the USA and in Brazil. I quit a job that I worked at for 14 years making about $60,000 per year so that I could go back to school (1 job created). I'm paying about $10,000 per year to attend school (teachers, janitors, administrators, assistants, etc.). I'm paying about $1,000 per month for an apartment to live in (construction workers, administrators, maintenance workers, etc.). I was only paying $600 for my mortgage payment so now I'm putting even more money in the economy. I pay to keep my lights on, put food on the table and keep fuel in my truck (ridiculously large number of jobs). I am going to school to get a job in the petroleum industry where I will supervise and employ oil field workers the world over. I'm doing every bit of this without a job, because I worked hard when I had one, got promoted because I worked hard, saved money, and am not in debt up to my eyeballs trying to keep up with the Jones's who are out spending money they don't have on things they cannot afford and are about to get kicked out of their home. Just like our government.

let me understand, you are a middle class American, why are you against more taxes on rich people? why they should be able to for example create jobs on other countries and sell their products and services on your country, like to have a call center/help desk on India, or to have Indian programmers developing a software to be used in USA, they should not be taxed heavily or even to be forbidden to use that?
I know i´m simplying too much, but that is only a example...

Mithus. Its the principle. Heaving taxes on rich people because they are rich... its taxing based purely on popularity.

Also, the govt will always spend what it thinks it CAN spend. Politicians always want to be seen "doing" something, and that "doing" usually involves money. Once you tax the rich to death, well the govt will still "need" MORe money. In history that is always how it works. So they start taxing the middle class, and then the poor.

There is a difference between splitting up the pie differently, and making a larger pie. The USA is the wealthiest, most powerful country on earth because it has historically focused on growing a larger pie, while the rest of the world was focused on fighting over whatever existing pie they already had.

You should read Atlas Shrugged. The concepts would be helpful to your legal career, even if just so you understand alternate world views. A lawyer needs to think like a hacker, and be able to be able to conceptualize many concepts and understand different WAYS of thinking. Even if you do not choose certain outlooks for yourself. I highly recommend giving it a shot, I will even gift it to you on Amazon Kindle if you want.

Derid I saw a resume on that novel, seems interesting.


translate from portuguese to english..

I agree with Derid, you should definitely read Atlas Shrugged. What the article doesn't address Mithus is that we now know that Buffet owes millions in unpaid taxes. Additionally, if he gave away a large portion of his earnings in charitable contributions to lower his tax burden that's a good thing. Not a loophole. Charity dollars are MUCH more efficient in helping the downtrodden than government money ever could be.

To answer you other question, I'm against raising taxes on the wealthy for several reasons.
1) The wealthiest 10% in this country already pay over 50% of the total taxes.
2) Why would anyone assume that pitting the haves against the have-nots would stop with raising taxes? If a little tax increase is good, why not take all of their money? Where does it stop?
3) Historically, our government revenues have INCREASED when taxes have been LOWERED. The reason for this is because when taxes are lower across the board, more people invest their money in business, creating more jobs. More jobs = more tax revenue.
4) As an adherent to the American Dream, I hope one day, through hard work and dedication, to be one of those wealthy people and I don't want the government to step in and take everything I've worked for.

Maybe I can put this is terms easier to understand. You're in school studying the law. I assume that as an intelligent young man who wants to succeed, you're working hard and getting good grades. What would you say if your professors decided that it wasn't fair for a few of you to have A's while your struggling peers have B's and C's and D's and F's. So, the new plan will be that those of you with A's will give 10 points to those with F's to help them out. Now we only have B's and C's and D's, but its still not fair, so the B's will give 10 points to the D's and now everyone, regardless of how hard they work will have a C. All is fair Happy Days!! Except, will you continue to work hard for an A when you know that no matter what you do you're guaranteed a C? I don' think so. That is EXACTLY the same thing that happens when you take money from one group to give to another in the name of "fairness." Productivity and quality plummet because it doesn't matter what I do, I'll never make more or less than I'm making now. Stagnation ensues and you get EXACTLY where the US is right now, with jobs being farmed out to less expensive workers who will work harder, because the workers here have become complacent and expectant of riches not earned.

Is that true?, the article says "where 80% of tax revenues come from taxes on employee relations employee"


I think the mainpoint is making the rich paying the same as you worker in comparasion: "The New York Times in which she asked that the United States ceased to indulge in the rich tax"



More jobs where? overseas, can you tax the china worker? you get my point.


That´s a argument of propaganda, nobody wants take your hardwork.



You know that is not true, the china workers will not work harder, they will receive less money for the same hours of the american work.

CBO reported tax rates The two charts at the top of this page show two things. First that the rich already pay more as a percentage than the rest of the country, and yet the polititards at OWS are yelling for a progressive income tax. Congratulations, you win, we have one! Second, that the wealthiest 20% pay close to 75% of all federal taxes.

I'm sure the rich would love to pay the same as say the bottom 20% of the country. I know I sure would, they pay NOTHING in federal income tax. Hell make it the bottom 40%, they pay nearly nothing.

Most of our companies would love to be able to put "Made in the U.S.A." on their products, if for no other reason than because many of us would purchase their product exclusively. Unfortunately our ass-backwards tariff system actually penelizes our companies for attempting to do business solely in the US. Look at the current news about Gibson Guitar as an example. They were raided by the government for allegedly illegally importing certain rare woods from Africa (Gibson claims they did everything by the book). They were told by the administration that if they wanted to use those woods all they had to do was relocate part of their manufacturing to Africa, where the wood comes from, because while the import of the raw material is illegal, importing the finished product is not. Gibson refused to ship those jobs overseas and is currently engaged in what will likely become a costly legal battle with the bureaucrats in Washington.

What is money if not the representative of my hard work. While I disagree with most of your stances Mithus I could always tell that you put a lot of thought into them. This one falls short.


I was thinking more about the Mexicans who come here to work than the Chinese, but I'll address your point. I've been exposed to many different levels of workforce in this country and I can tell you unequivocally that there is a plethora of people in this country who believe that their jobs are owed to them and they work only so hard as to not get fired. That number increases with every passing generation. Until the Chinese people are free to decide for themselves what job they will do and how they will do it their numbers and virtual slave labor will continue to dominate the market. The only thing, short of war with China, that we can do to address that problem is to put massive tarrifs on goods shipped from China and similar countries so that those products become prohibitively expensive to purchase. Thus driving those products out of the market and negatively impacting the power of China's ruling elite. That's really sad because it should be much easier than that. All the folks who scream about the injustices of the US are probably walking around in clothes and shoes made in China, talking on cell phones made in China with homes filled with products made in China, a country that exploits the weakest among them for the betterment of the ruling class. Do a little research and you will find that there are 10s of millions of people in China who don't even have electricity and who are forced to live hand to mouth because of the oppressive rules of their country.

We should do away with sales tax, implement a flat income tax, and allow all wages to be paid out of employers' EBITDA.

Poor people spend a larger percent of their income to sales tax than the rich do.

For example:
-If you spend your entire paycheck in a week, then you pay out around 8% of your take-home money to sales tax.
-If you can afford to save half of your paycheck every week, then you only pay out around 4% of your money to sales tax.
-If you can afford to save 90% of your paycheck every week, then you pay 0.8% to sales tax - yeah, that's less than 1%.

Setting a flat income tax rate would make it about as fair as it could get...

Allowing employers to pay employee wages out of EBITDA would stimulate job growth by making it less expensive for employers to hire more American workers.

That's my two cents for the evening... I think it would be a hell of a combo.

Bottom line, this is the premise of the occupy wall street want. They want a mother fucking handout, they do not want to WORK to get something. They are lazy mother fuckers PERIOD!

If you can read a graph, chop this up and smoke it.

I like where your head is Sling.

I didnt understand a thing.
this graph shows that people under 58.000 pay 17%, and people under the next level that pays 14%, and people above 11%, so there is a parcel of population that pays more in a comparative percentage and that's is the problem.

To me it shows that the more you make the more you pay in taxes.

National sales tax would be fine because the rich spend alot of money and would pay alot in taxes.

Me going out and spending 100 bucks on dinner for my family is like a rich guy paying 100 bucks for his own dinner.

Or I buy a car that is 25k and he buys one that is 75k.

The more money you have the more you spend on big ticket items.

Comparing % of income is not accurate on the sales tax argument.

I would be for the 9/9/9 as long as food and life needing items are exempt.

If you notice the most that is being paid is 27% from the top 1% of earners. You also need to look how the graphs slides to the next level. The $58,000 range pays 9% the $85,000 pays 17%

So yes, the tax system is fucked thanks for noticing. This is why most of us have been in favor of a new tax system. As a single man with no dependents I get to pay the top end of taxes at my pay scale. Stupid me, I should go out find me a trailer park diva with 15 kids and quit my job and let Obama and friends take care of me.

You mentioned before that Brazil has something about human dignity in the constitution. Human dignity is being a productive member of society. Working and doing what's expected, without living on a handout from the Government. Dignity is accomplishing something that you yourself has done, and not given to you.

wolfgang is easy to talk, but when the unemployment rates are high things get difficult, is not that people do not want to work, the government has to facilitate the creation of jobs, being by protecting their industries and services or whatever be the solution..

in the mid 80´s I think Brazil had like 20% unenmployment rate, that is high, the new constituition was made in 1988 after 20 years of militar ditactorship. How people have dignity if there is no oportunity to have a job, not that they do not want to work.

The govt needs to get out of peoples way and stop being an impediment to work.

Though the situation in Brazil is different. Unlike the USA, it seems like the land distribution was already settled as being in the legal hands of a very select few prior to Brazil's incorporation as a nation.

In the USA, land was trickled out in small amounts to homesteaders across several generations. So while there are certainly some very large landowners in the USA, that and other economic factors has contributed to a very even land distribution - even if the economic distribution in terms of absolute dollars is more uneven.

I do think it makes a difference.

However the land was distributed in this fashion in large part due to the attitudes and effort of individuals. So the individualistic attitudes and even distribution of land are pretty synergistic. But its an important difference to note nonetheless.

Again that's the flaw, GOVERNMENT doesn't CREATE JOBS. A private sector creates jobs. Government can dictate how many jobs are created by means of over regulation and heavy taxation. You have to have a strong private sector in order to have a strong stable economy. From what I seen with Brazil is the private sector has became stronger. That's why Brazil's economy is getting stronger. There are a lot of resources in Brazil, and with that your are seeing the rewards in better jobs and a stronger economy.

I seen something interesting on the news the other night. There are certain drugs that are in short supply, a lot of these drugs are for cancer patients. One of the reason's given for the shortage has to do with Government regulation. AGAIN, I'm not saying we don't need regulation, because we do. But to much regulation just shits all over something that's "supposed" to be well intended.

Government red tape is a huge problem, when the government decides to tackle the red tape and becoming more efficient in that area, there will be problems.

Civil War 2 inc.

There are jobs..

Just jobs that kids these days feel entitled NOT to work..

When I was 12 my father shipped me off to the fields around the area to do a variety of manual labor jobs. It was hard work for little pay but what it gained me in work ethic.

I very, very rarely see kids these days working out in those fields because quite honestly the mindset of many American families these days is that their children shouldn't have to work those types of jobs because, well, I'm not quite sure. This is the problem; entitlement.

The only problem now is that many of these manual labor jobs such as farming, cleaning and custodial, etc are done by illegals into this country. Hell even today I'm pretty sure, but not positive that many of the fast food employee's are now not teenagers/etc but elderly because from what I've heard there are is a lack of teenagers willing to work these "bad jobs".

You hear people bitch about this everyday and the illegals and immigration and the such however if those people were not allowed to work those jobs, the same jobs that seemingly are "below" most young American's taste, then they would have to be held by American's and most likely a union based operation. In doing so your 85c per lb for apples would not skyrocket to over $3 a lb because of the overhead of union fair wages, benefits and perks they always seem to pull out of their asses.

There was a time, not long ago, that working an honest day for an honest wage meant something and if you didn't have the talents for technology, dentistry, engineering or any other specialty class work talent you did manual labor. We are and will continue to lose these types of jobs, including manufacturing, because no one wants to work these jobs anymore as there is a stigma of being lower class if you do so (at least around my area which is HEAVILY manufacturing based).

The truth of the matter is this country needs ditch diggers, farmers, manual labor because not everyone is a rocket scientist; however, our public school systems and the elitist parents tell our kids they can be anything they want to be which is a very bold and outright lie. It's a shame.

You are absolutely right. When I was a kid I would do just about any kind of work to gain a few bucks so I could buy something for myself. It felt good to be able to pull out my own money I worked for to pay for something. My parents didn't have a lot of money, so any extra I could come up with was a plus.

You're right about people saying you can do anything you want. I think that's 50/50 at best. Some people can work hard and make something come out of it. Others, it doesn't matter how hard they work still won't be able to do the same thing. I think everyone knows the limitations of their abilities. I am one of those. But what I lack in certain area's, I make up for with work ethic and common sense.

I think you nailed it Icky! There's simply to much "entitlement" thinking these days.

I am truly embarrassed to see how much some of you embraced "I got mine, so screw everyone else" mentality. I know many of you personally and know you to be good people, so it is really puzzling to see how otherwise decent human being could go off the deep end like that.

With 9+% published (and more like 15% real) unemployment finding a job is not that easy, especially when you don't have mobility that someone with above-average income would have. For many of these people moving to cheaper areas, closer to jobs or learning high-demand skills is not an option. They are stuck where they are, doing work they can find locally... and you can't live off that anymore, thanks to open-trade and outsourcing policies that puts so much downward pressure on below-average (half of us are!) population. You can't be serious to expect your fellow countryman (and woman) to live like Chinese factory slaves on about the same income and about the same quality of life.

Government does create and destroy jobs. Government creates jobs via defense, education, infrastructure and research spending. Government destroys jobs by creating environment where moving wealth, knowledge and manufacturing to third-world countries for a short-term bottom line gain isn't heavily taxed/discouraged.


Here is example for you:

US technology, that was based on NASA/NH/public education research gets outsourced by a private company to China to save 2% manufacturing costs. Execs get 10 mil bonuses and US lost 1,000 jobs. Private company didn't create this technology in a vacuum. They had access to US educated scientists (GOV money), public research (GOV money) and infrastructure (GOV money) that made that technology possible. So why are they now free to gift this technology to China (that only had to spend fraction of that cost suppressing people to keep labor costs down) while costing jobs at home?!

You should be happy some third world country people got a job and will be able to enjoy a better life.

Remember, even when part of the lowest earner of the Western world, you are a lot richer than 90% of the world population.

Western lifestyle (infrastructure, education, health care) cannot be afforded on third-world salary while living in a Western Nation. Salary-equalization creates situation where you will end up paid salary comparable to Chinese factory worker but have to spend it in a different setting, effectively unable to afford food/health care/shelter.

Richer in absolute terms means nothing; they are richer in relative terms when someone earning 5$ can get $1 healthcare, $1 housing and $1 shelter.

Even someone with access to a shaman in a village 50 miles away is better off than 20-something asthmatic cancer survivor with a student debt and mortgage in default trying to live off Wall-Mart part-time no benefits job.

Once again nobody says we shouldn't help out when things get bad, show me where it was said????

Its the constant taking away the money from one to give to another that creates a welfare nation and a give me what I want because I dont want to work for it Nation that we have seem to become.

It seems that overnight that people think we now have a large population of rich people that don't pay anything in taxes.



"hey had access to US educated scientists (GOV money), public research (GOV money) and infrastructure (GOV money)"

US educated scientists--so all scientist education was paid for by the government? I should have become a scientist if its free.

Public research is Gov money? You know not all research is paid for by the Gov right???

What infrastructure?

That is a direct reflection of the media situation in which people who have never lived here have no real clue, only the bullshit they see in the news and media.

I will never forget in the 1990's when a group of Russian military attended the leadership school where I was an instructor. We took them to a local supermarket and were shocked when they accused us of having set it up , that it could not be real. We had to drive around and show them a whole bunch to prove this was a normal thing in the United States.

Public research is very rarely funded by the government. Us Educated Scientists...why does that have to be government money? And why does the infrastructure have to be government?

This is further evidence of education by media. A lack of understanding.

Government does create jobs, but it has nothing on the potential that the private sector does given little Government involvement via regulation and taxes. What sickens me is when people think the Government the only one that can do all, and that a private sector business is nothing but corruption. Government is corruption. When you have a tax system that is obviously broken and not willing to fix it, but very willing to add more to it is corrupt.

Our politicians only do as much as they can get away with. If we start voting on job performance all of these jackass's will be voted out of office. On the jobs issue, if you can't find a job in your current field then you should look into other fields to find work. It would be grand to be able to find a job in a field you went to college or technical school for. But a job is a job. If that makes me an asshole, who cares.

Too many people look for a handout from the Government, instead of doing a little bit of research and VOTING FOR someone that isn't following their party lines. That is willing to do their JOB and whats best for everyone. Find me a politician that's willing to make big changes with the tax system, to have regulation but not OVER burdened regulation, that believes in social programs to HELP people not to give handouts. I bet you couldn't find more than a few politicians that are willing to do that and be truthful.

There's nothing wrong with protesting. But why are these Wall Street protesters on Wall Street? Wall Street does what they are allowed to do by Government regulation. If companies are making big money because people think they aren't getting taxed fairly, why are they protesting them? They don't make up their own taxes, the Government does. But why are we surprised that it's fucked up, the Chairman of the House Weights and means committee can't figure out how to pay his taxes (See Charlie Rangel) Neither can Geitner, the man that sits at the FED dolling out money unfettered.

I'm still puzzled how you get that we said "We got ours screw your's"We have programs that help people. I personally think the Welfare programs hinders more than it helps. I can agree that if you give someone a trade skill, they can work their way to whatever they want to be or do in their career. With the current economy, it's tough no doubt about it. I was laid off for nearly 2 months but work has picked up in the area I'm skilled in by A LOT. Not sure how you figure we will be working for the same income as a Chinese worker. Last I checked I make in a week what they may in a year. Poor me!

Right now there's a big need for Welders and machinist, where I am. If you want a job, go to your local unemployment office and check with them. I know while I was laid off they were going to train me in other area's after I had been off more than a month. Luckily I was called back, but the opportunity was going to be there to get training through the state in something else. So to sit there and say there is no hope, and the only way they can do anything is to get something FREE from the Government. If that sickens you so be it, if you think the government taking you by the hand telling you when and what you should be doing is the way it should be, well then knock yourself out.

By the way, when the Government gives something it's never free. Tax payers get the bill on that. Bottom line is, if you want fairer taxes then VOTE for someone that's willing to have the balls to stand up and make it happen. Don't just take their word that they want to change, make them give examples and how they intend to fix the tax system. Right now that's a big issue, the economy isn't recovering because companies that have money to invest, won't since the left wants to regulate and tax them into Oblivion. It's not stable, find a fair tax system without regulating them into the dirt and you will find the economy coming back.

Wonder where you really stack up in the 99%? Use this tool built by the Kiplinger Institute to find out just what is what and how upside down our tax code really is.

By the way Helemoto is disproportional income as a ratio to disposiable income that makes a flat National Sales Tax effect the people who make under the 30K threshold more profoundly.

Your $X adjusted gross income (AGI) puts you in the top 25% of earners.

The top-earning 25% of taxpayers reported 65.81% of all AGI and paid 87.30% of total income taxes.

Together, you and the other 34.5 million taxpayers with incomes of $X or more paid a total of $755.9 billion in federal income taxes.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/they_want_lice_of_the_occu_pie_9xKCxcI4aectFYkafMb8UJ

Ha!

The comments are so spot on.. Like a leech, after it has it's fill, they will drop off into the murky depths of the pond once again..

being the richest nation on earth means we can't afford to live in our own country.

Leave it to Drakiis to come out of left field with a nonsensical statement.