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#98049 - 02/03/12 08:46 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Originally Posted By: Kaotic
However, with the proper license it is legal to own nearly any type of firearm/explosive up to and including a tank.


How that contradicts anything I said?

For example, can you explain to me why would anyone ever need to own M60. To repel loyalist invasion?


Why would people in a free country with rights to bear arms need anything? How many M60's have you seen used in murders lately?

From what I'm seeing your logic says this... "We don't need guns, we already have our freedom and liberty, so nobody can take those away!"

Believe what you may, an armed society keeps a Government from overstepping it's boundaries! If you don't think it can happen here, then you are sorely mistaken and blinded from the facts of history.

Last edited by Wolfgang; 02/03/12 08:46 PM.

#98053 - 02/03/12 11:08 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Wolfgang]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfgang

From what I'm seeing your logic says this... "We don't need guns, we already have our freedom and liberty, so nobody can take those away!"


Well, from what I'm seeing you are not reading my posts very carefully. I am saying that we need to license all firearms, to the point where licensing/tracking matches car ownership.

Drive by shooting is much bigger deal than hit and run, yet tracking car is much easier than a gun. Why is that?


#98054 - 02/04/12 12:15 AM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Originally Posted By: Wolfgang

From what I'm seeing your logic says this... "We don't need guns, we already have our freedom and liberty, so nobody can take those away!"


Well, from what I'm seeing you are not reading my posts very carefully. I am saying that we need to license all firearms, to the point where licensing/tracking matches car ownership.

Drive by shooting is much bigger deal than hit and run, yet tracking car is much easier than a gun. Why is that?


For starters having a car is a privilege it's not a right like say having GUNS are. You will NEVER put a device on guns that will allow you to track every single one of them unless you FORCE people to do it, even then I promise you there will be guns out there that wouldn't have a tracking device on them. It's just the way it is.

Instead, let's do something wild and crazy. Let's use the laws we have on weapons to control them from getting into the hands of the bad guys as much as we can. We have something like fifteen thousand gun laws, gun laws only are good for the people that follow them. It's just like having a Restraining Order, they work great if the person you have it on is usually a law abiding citizen. But if you have a Restraining Order on someone that doesn't give a shit about the law or is temporarily out of their mind that paper means jack shit if they kick in your door with a gun!

People die in countries that don't have gun rights, or limited rights. Take Norway, one person killed 87 people... ONE. You know what would have stopped at least 85 others from dying? If someone had a weapon themselves. Sure some still may have died, but it would not have been 87 people. Imagine if some douche canoe rolled up to a boy scouts camp ground blasting people. I bet you that at least one person there would have a gun either on them or some place close. I'm not sure about you, but if someone rolls up with a gun firing, I don't want to just have my cock in my hand.


#98058 - 02/04/12 01:04 AM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Wolfgang]  
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Only guns are legal to own in Norway.


#98060 - 02/04/12 01:07 AM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Wolfgang]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfgang
if someone rolls up with a gun firing, I don't want to just have my cock in my hand.


Do you feel that a handgun, registered in your local police department, is sufficient, or do you feel you have to have a M60 in sandbag fort to adequately protect yourself?


#98061 - 02/04/12 01:24 AM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Originally Posted By: Wolfgang
if someone rolls up with a gun firing, I don't want to just have my cock in my hand.


Do you feel that a handgun, registered in your local police department, is sufficient, or do you feel you have to have a M60 in sandbag fort to adequately protect yourself?

That's like asking a nerd why they need so many computers.

SO AGAIN... how many times have you heard of a M60 being used in a murder or simply shooting at people? If you have please Indulge!

Just to add, If I could park a tank in my living room and some unlucky soul kicked in the door blasting, I wouldn't have any problem shooting a 120MM cannon directly at their head. Because if someone kicks in my door, they better be bringing some serious heat, because I WILL!

Last edited by Wolfgang; 02/04/12 01:27 AM.

#98066 - 02/04/12 05:00 AM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
How that contradicts anything I said?
I wasn't attempting to contradict anything. I was merely attempting to educate.
Originally Posted By: sinij
My personal view on automatic weapons is that we are outside of traditional definition of guns and into "tools of war" territory. You shouldn't be able to own such weapons for the same reason you shouldn't be able to own a tank or cruise missile - potential for collateral is too great.

What is the traditional definition of guns? How far back are we going to define "traditional"? It wasn't that long ago that the guns used by the military were the exact same ones used by citizens. In fact, less than 200 years ago the guns the military used belonged to the citizens.

On the surface I can see the merit in Sinji's suggestion that guns be issued some sort of tracking device. However, I have two problems with it, that, if can be sufficiently addressed, will convince me that this idea is ok.

1) You suggested that people would be more careful about their guns if they knew that they would be held responsible if their gun was used in a crime, even if they weren't wielding it. I'm not sure how you're going to reconcile that with our constitution or our current laws. I tried to use your car analogy to get there but failed since, if someone uses my car, even with my permission, and they get in an accident or use it for some malicious purpose, I'm not held responsible.

2) Many people fear that further regulation of firearms will continue down what they consider to be a slippery slope to prohibition of guns. How would you assure people that this won't happen?


#98069 - 02/04/12 02:30 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Kaotic]  
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Originally Posted By: Kaotic


What is the traditional definition of guns? How far back are we going to define "traditional"?


I could be an ass about it, and say that since it is constitutional right to own guns, we should go back in time to declaration of independence...

I really don't think handguns are problem. It is when you get into heavy hardware, where police cannot deal with it and has to call for a backup, is when you get into a problem.

Some deranged idiot can unload automatic weapon into a crowd and even if everyone in the crowd packs heat he kills multiple people before anyone can react. I don't understand how can you not see this as a problem.

I am all for gun ownership for hunting or protecting yourself and your home, but not more than that. There isn't any reason to own assault rifle or sniper rifle, but there are very real drawbacks when criminals and deranged individuals get their hands on it.


#98086 - 02/04/12 08:34 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Tasorin]  
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First, you misunderstood the question. To clarify, the question is, are guns going to be defined as the same ones used by the military (as when the D of I was written), or is there some definition you adhere to that creates a delineation between citizen firearms and military firearms?

Second, I believe that you misunderstand the reason for the 2nd amendment. Or we just fundamentally disagree about it. I believe that the 2nd amendment was written to ensure that the populace has the ability to defend itself against an out of control or oppressive government. Given the time in which it was written I think this is a perfectly reasonable argument. You seem to believe that the 2nd amendment was written with the intention that the citizenry be allowed the ability to hunt for food. While that is a perfectly acceptable use for guns, I don't believe that it was necessary to amend our founding document to address hunting. To wit, the statement you made about not having a problem with guns for "hunting or personal protection" doesn't stand up to the constitutionality test.

Third, your argument that bad things happen when guns fall into the wrong hands and should therefore be more regulated is akin to arguing that breathing causes death because oxygen kills cells, so we should all just stop breathing. Thomas Jefferson said, those who would sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither and will surely lose both. I agree with him.

Fourth, you only attempted to address one of my points. Please feel free to address both.


Last edited by Kaotic; 02/04/12 08:38 PM.

#98233 - 02/07/12 06:08 PM Re: An Armed Society, is a politer Society [Re: Kaotic]  
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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Second, I believe that you misunderstand the reason for the 2nd amendment. Or we just fundamentally disagree about it.


Lets take this argument to absurd extreme. Why shouldn't you, a private citizen, be allowed to own a briefcase nuke?

Quote:
I believe that the 2nd amendment was written to ensure that the populace has the ability to defend itself against an out of control or oppressive government.


I guess we disagree. I believe it ends at "defend itself" part. After all, how can single individual defend himself/herself against entire government that has tanks, planes, carriers with just a rifle?

Potential civil war is not going to go any differently if population has access to only handguns (and much safer society sans revolution because of that) or automatic rifles and machine guns. Just like in the case of The Civil War, people will divide into camps, implements of war will be manufactured or brought out of military stockpiles and used in a field of battle.

If anything, independence of military and its disengagement from political process is what keeps us from "oppressive government" and not an ability to own automatic machine guns.


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