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#95504 - 11/23/11 11:09 PM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Sini]  
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Well, you are still ignoring the inherent valuation problems within any system that depends on committee based valuation (assignment of value)

But to use some real life experience, basic medical care is not all Cadillac. Like I said before, I have had basic membership at the Local Med-Alert or whatever it was called, one of those chains of emergency/walk-in clinics. Was like 80$/month. Catastrophic Hospitalization / major was like 40$. For like 120$/month I could walk in and get basic health care and was covered in case of something major.

Encouraging that type of division of labor, and private enterprise to see a need in the market and fill it at lower cost is always going to work better than assigning paid bureaucrats to try and quantify the details of a system that will actually work and serve its purpose.

Capitalistic systems (true Capitalism) are superior because all participants in the supply chain have a say in determining the exchange rate for goods and services.

Even if you maintain your argument that health care is something people "have" to have, as long as they have a real choice in which health care and who the provider is, there is always motivation for someone to try and provide that service for less cost.

This does not always happen in our current system, for a number of reasons, many of which have their roots in unnecessary govt intervention. Other root causes are people not shopping around as much as they should. Lots of people just take whatever they get from work, but the work plans are tied up in lots of regulation and HMOs, plus all the govt money that gets pumped into the system often makes a more attractive commercial target than targeting individuals who are looking to save money.

But regardless of that, there are still plenty of services and programs that do target cost savers. The fact is, that just because many people overpaid for health care - does not mean they had to over pay. If they did over pay, its their fault not the govts fault and not something we should up-end our whole society over.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#95511 - 11/24/11 01:27 AM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Derid]  
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I still stand by my point that "true capitalism" isn't possible outside of very narrow controlled (lot of regulation, har har) circumstances. If left to its own Capitalism quickly turns into Cronyism or Corporatism due to interchangeable nature of wealth and power. Designing "Capitalistic systems (true Capitalism)" is as realistic assumption as building communism. Both assume unrealistic lack of "human factors" from its participants.

Derid, at some point you will come to realization that "true capitalism" is only possible in a tightly regulated environment where 'rules of the game' are rigidly defined and deviations and rule bending are heavily discouraged.

Last edited by sinij; 11/24/11 01:33 AM.

#95513 - 11/24/11 01:35 AM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Personal Bankruptcy

Quote:
Harvard researchers say 62% of all personal bankruptcies in the U.S. in 2007 were caused by health problems—and 78% of those filers had insurance.


You know what the number of personal bankruptcies caused by health bills in Canada? Zero. No fine prints, no pre-existing conditions, no for-profit middle man.

They don't take away your house, your wedding ring, your non-protected retirement savings, they don't harass you with bill collections just because you got sick.

Last edited by sinij; 11/24/11 01:41 AM.

#95518 - 11/24/11 02:38 AM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
I still stand by my point that "true capitalism" isn't possible outside of very narrow controlled (lot of regulation, har har) circumstances. If left to its own Capitalism quickly turns into Cronyism or Corporatism due to interchangeable nature of wealth and power. Designing "Capitalistic systems (true Capitalism)" is as realistic assumption as building communism. Both assume unrealistic lack of "human factors" from its participants.

Derid, at some point you will come to realization that "true capitalism" is only possible in a tightly regulated environment where 'rules of the game' are rigidly defined and deviations and rule bending are heavily discouraged.


The thing you are forgetting is that governmental power is even more substitutable for political power than money is to political power. In fact they are practically one and the same. Yes, money can and does corrupt, but corruption happens even without money. Hence why all statist regimes, Communist, Socialist, or Otherwise in history all end up being more corrupt than free market societies. You saying that corruption occurs in free market societies is correct, but you need to remember that a small govt can more easily be kept in check and made to enforce sensible rules than a large govt with a plethora of rules.

Even Sweden, with its huge energy exports as % of GDP and its small size making it more liken to a large corporation for economics purposes has its own considerable http://www.atimes.com/atimes/front_page/ll22aa01.html corruption issues in regard to its public housing and health system.

Lets not even get into total Socialist and Statist societies like USSR, North Korea, Cuba, or whats been going on in Venezuela.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#95529 - 11/24/11 04:02 PM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
I still stand by my point that "true capitalism" isn't possible outside of very narrow controlled (lot of regulation, har har) circumstances. If left to its own Capitalism quickly turns into Cronyism or Corporatism due to interchangeable nature of wealth and power. Designing "Capitalistic systems (true Capitalism)" is as realistic assumption as building communism. Both assume unrealistic lack of "human factors" from its participants.

Derid, at some point you will come to realization that "true capitalism" is only possible in a tightly regulated environment where 'rules of the game' are rigidly defined and deviations and rule bending are heavily discouraged.
You mention an unrealistic lack of human factors being the cornerstone for true capitalism, but you've neglected to recognize that human flaws are what breaks down EVERY system. The same will be true in your socialist eutopia with the exception that in your dream society the people will have no way to repair the problem because not only do they have no say in the matter but you've also taken away their ability to defend themselves against an oppressive government (I'm assuming you're also against the 2nd amendment).

You seem to be working under the assumption that corruption only occurs in the private sector, or at the behest of the private sector. What happens when you get your way only to find that some animals are more equal than others? What happens to the people when they have no say in how things are run or who runs the government?

I'm sure you're already planning to attack my post as changing the subject. The health care market doesn't exist in a vacuum. You cannot make valid arguments related to health care without also addressing all of the ramifications of your plan. As Derid has tried to point out to you over and over and over again, you cannot know ALL of the impact that the change you're proposing (and we're all potentially faced with dependant upon the S.C. decision in June '12) will have but you can look around at similar systems that currently exist and you can measure a) their effectiveness b) their cost c) the impact for the populace d) their contribution to the medical community, and a whole host of other things that can help make an informed decision. Derid has pointed out many of the flaws of these sytems but I've yet to see you point out the benefits in a quantifiable way. To date you've only spouted platitudes about how much better it is in other countries, with a random bit of cherry picked data thrown in to make your claims look credible. Show us the unbiased report that takes into account the macro level impacts of this change and compares our current system to these other systems while taking into account the medical community contribution of each of the parties being compaired.

You're still hanging on to the idea that wealth = power = corruption, but you've failed to recognize that the only reason either of those things results in corruption is simple human nature. Call it greed if you want. You cannot devise a system devoid of humans (skynet isn't online yet) so you cannot yet create the uncorruptable system. Luckily for us our founders realized this and did their best to design a system that restricts government by the will of the people. Unfortunately, people have still managed to corrupt and misuse that system for their own gain, or because they naively believe they are smarter than everyone else and must seize power to force people to do what is best for them. What us "hick trogolodites" want is a return to that foundation so that we can make decisions for ourselves. I can only assume from your posts that you're one of those who believes that you know better what is good for me than I do and therefore must step in and save me from myself. How about we let nature take is course and let the chips fall where they may on an individual level?

You're probably going to notice that I've not argued the finer points of the discussion here, but that's because I've realized the futility of attempting such a debate. This, I believe, is the root problem with any debate between the two sides of the political spectrum. Those two sides cannot possibly have a discussion about something as localized as health care until they've come to some understanding over how the larger system must be run. There is simply no point in arguing the merits of either system of health care until we agree on some basic principles. If we are unable to come to some agreement then there is really nothing we can do but shake hands and agree to disagree because there is little enough that we will ever agree on to make any debate worthwhile. Now, if we can find some common ground perhaps we can work backwards from there, but so far I've not seen it. I don't know if you believe everything you say in here, but it seems like much of it is you playing devil's advocate and your actual views lie somewhere towards the center from your statements. If that's true perhaps there is some common ground.

For the record, that kind of stalemate is what I think the founders intended to keep the government from getting bloated.


#95534 - 11/24/11 05:33 PM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Kaotic]  
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Sinji about your dream of socialized health Care system, will not pass.

Quote:
The health and insurance sectors gave nearly $170 million to House and Senate members in 2007 and 2008, with 54% going to Democrats, according to data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics


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#95548 - 11/24/11 09:25 PM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Kaotic]  
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Kaotic, every system is prone to corruption, but we _KNOW_ that health insurance is for-profit, so corruption is incentivized.

Simply put - when someone could make money screwing you, you are more likely to get screwed.

Quote:
You're still hanging on to the idea that wealth = power = corruption


This argument going in circles. Again, it is concentration of wealth that leads to power and corruption. Solution is to minimize concentration of wealth. This can be easily done with progressive tax system, just like in the past.

Last edited by sinij; 11/24/11 09:29 PM.

#95569 - 11/25/11 02:01 AM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Sini]  
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Actually socialization concentrates power more that capitalism, it just concentrates the power in the hands a few bureaucrats and politicians.

When people have no choices or options.. it doesnt work out in the end. In a free market, when a bad industry collapses it can and will be reborn, in a socialized or interventionist system, collapse has large repercussions. And more often, collapse is prevented, perpetuation a stagnant, inefficient system.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#95605 - 11/26/11 12:10 AM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Sini]  
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Sinij in your world the wealth=power=corruption just gets turned around to corruption=power=wealth.





#95666 - 11/28/11 07:34 PM Re: Does government regulation kill jobs? [Re: Helemoto]  
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You (conservatives) genuinely believe that lots of individual making choice to best satisfy their own needs work better in large scale systems that any overseeing body trying to lay down strategies or directives. You cannot comprehend the end results of this ideology, and no historical examples, sociological theory or pointing out human nature can convince you otherwise. You still believe that if we left it all to the free market somehow this time, unlike other times, we would not end up with robber barons and oligarchs.

There is the psychodynamic construct called repetition compulsion, individuals and large social groups unconsciously repeat past conflicts in an attempt at mastery, re-creating old, unresolved problems hoping for the potential of a better outcome.


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