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#92340 - 09/12/11 05:58 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Arkh]  
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Mithus Offline
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Originally Posted By: Arkh
. So saying you don't care about how much it cost to save one life means you don't care about the hours doctors and nurses will have to work to save this person.


Give you an weird example, miners get stuck at mine, can you say that theirs rescue will cost thousand of dollars because it will need an expensive machine that for example need come by plane or etc..., and itīs not worth of saving their life? Whatīs the difference to another situation when people has health life problem,

Can the "state" be absent and do not use their resources to save the same people life? i do not get it.


Animal Ethics: "I tremble for my species when I reflect that god is just." Thomas Jefferson.
#92341 - 09/12/11 06:03 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Mithus]  
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Actually I would say their employer has the responsibility to dig them out in that case.

I would not say it is MY responsibility to pay to dig them out though. Except indirectly as I purchase goods made from whatever they were digging for... which that money ends up going to their employer, which should be responsible for rescuing their employees.

Making the gov't pay for it just encourages employers to send people into mines they know are unsafe because if something happens they would not be the ones footing the bill.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#92342 - 09/12/11 06:08 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: JetStar]  
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Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Vuldan
Originally Posted By: JetStar
Actually as we break this down, we come closer and closer to agreement.

Wolfgang, you are actually starting to make sense.

Believe you me, I am not 100% for everything democratic. I am just picking the lessor of two evils.

So what is it going to be Wolf, Derid, and Vuldam? Perry, Romney, or Obama? I am so curious who you would choose if it came down to it. Then after you make your decision, lets break down their policies and what it means to America for the next 4 to 8 years.

This is going to be interesting if you guys go along with this thread.



Given those choices and no other, which I actually have the right to vote other (In my case, even tho he has little chance of winning, Ron Paul will get my vote), but, if there were only those 3 available to me Jet, Romney would receive my vote hands down.

The reason Romney scares politicians and people is that they can not pin down what a Romney Presidency would actually look like. He may dable in the political arena, but he is a businessman first and foremost. This makes him an unknown commodity. I do believe his policies and direction would be good for the country economically and with respect to making enroads to clearing up the debt, IF, he could also depend on a balanced house and senate. I would suggest that Romney's ability to be flexible, rather than hardlined, is a good thing for him. In reality, none of us can really know what he would do, but of those 3 choices, he would be the best available. Of those 3 candidates, his record shows that he has the ability to look past the pettyness of party and choose people who will work based on ability and whatever vision is present. I would suggest the American people will keep their welfare as a strong vision, since so many continue to believe it's the governments job to improve their lives. As such, Romney will also be the liberal democrats best hope of holding on to some of the ridiculous things Obama has put into place. Not all of them mind you. I am convinced Romney will do away with this nightmare health bs and come up with something better and more appropriate, which would be Insurance Reform, if we must have the government messing in captolistic systems. A huge mistake by the way, but not one I see changing soon.

As far as Obama is concerned, we deserve (we being the metaphorical American, not me personnally) everything he has done to us. He had nothing to offer in the way of political focus, national respect or international capacity beyond the color of his skin. And thus, we get what we paid for. Anyone who does not understand the reality only has to look at the direct result of the government taking over GM to see where Obama's "give a shit" really rests. The Union and the "elite rich" of GM benefitted from that, the shareholders got stabbed in the ass and the continued unwillingnness of people to invest in major companies of the country continues out of fear of that happening again. His complete disregard of the US Constitution is abhorrent, and his political circus bs is pathetic. He got his deal for the debt ceiling so he could go on vacation. PHA...ass.

I sincerely wish for the revolution to begin, for the Veterans to take over and bring this whole system in line..oh wait..that is Starship Troopers...not the worst thing that could happen. :-)


I think you should start drinking bottled water Vuldan.


LOL...nice dodge.


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#92343 - 09/12/11 06:14 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Derid]  
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Mithus Offline
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Originally Posted By: Derid

Actually I would say their employer has the responsibility to dig them out in that case.

I would not say it is MY responsibility to pay to dig them out though. Except indirectly as I purchase goods made from whatever they were digging for... which that money ends up going to their employer, which should be responsible for rescuing their employees.

Making the gov't pay for it just encourages employers to send people into mines they know are unsafe because if something happens they would not be the ones footing the bill.



Is hard to put a concept to you, letīs change to a situation where kids get stuck in a cave while exploring a forest... OMG smile. Or for example 9/11 tragedy where people where stuck at debris and would tooooo expensive to save them, would you accept the "State" saying would be too expensive, why iīm asking this, i know your anwser because in your view, you are a indivudalist :), and you would answer is their responsability to put in that situation.

Last edited by Mithus; 09/12/11 06:30 PM.

Animal Ethics: "I tremble for my species when I reflect that god is just." Thomas Jefferson.
#92344 - 09/12/11 06:40 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Mithus]  
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Health care may be considered a right in Brazil, Mithus, but here in the United States the only rights we enjoy are to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Every other right is derived from those 3. Health care cannot be derived from those three, although my ability to choose which healthcare, or whether or not to have healthcare, can be derived from them. Some examples are:

1. No one has a right to take my life from me
a) reasonable use of force may be used to preserve my life when threatened, up to and including killing the person trying to take my life.
2. I am free to live my life in whatever way I like as long as I don't infringe upon someone else's rights.
3. My ability to pursue (not a guarantee that I will find it) happiness may not be infringed upon by the government or other citizens
4. You have the right to seek whatever healthcare you'd like, but you may not infringe on my rights by forcefully taking my work to pay for your care.

*edit*
As to your scenario about the kids stuck in a cave, we have the best police, firemen and rescue workers in the world and they will spare no expense to save some one in dire need. That is a service that we pay for with our state and local taxes, not a right. For anyone who believes that the POTUS has any say over whether or not your local firemen and police officers get paid you may rest assured that he does not, but it sure makes for a good sound bite to scare folks with. Just like the ones that suggest that folks who are currently retired will be kicked off of SSI if a conservative gets elected. That's just complete nonsense. However, anyone who is under 40 and thinks they are going to get SSI when they retire is seriously deluded.

Individualist: one that pursues a markedly independent course in thought or action

Individualism and those 3 rights are what our country was founded upon Mithus. Despite attempts to lump us all into baskets of this or that many of us believe very firmly that it is our duty to the country that affords us these rights to act in the spirit of our founding fathers by individually seeking success and happiness for our families, rather than rely on the largess of others.

Last edited by Kaotic; 09/12/11 07:03 PM. Reason: Cave response

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#92345 - 09/12/11 06:51 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Kaotic]  
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Mithus Offline
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ok let put aside all the law and etcs, I just want to undersand how you guy view this

in a hypothetical case do you agree if a parcel of your popuation cannot pay for a private health care, they should not receive medical treatment, and the government with their power and resources that they get with your hard work from taxes should not intervene to give this parcel of population health care.

Is that correct to your point of view, I mean to you agree that they should no receive medical treatment because they cannot pay for that?

Last edited by Mithus; 09/12/11 06:53 PM.

Animal Ethics: "I tremble for my species when I reflect that god is just." Thomas Jefferson.
#92346 - 09/12/11 07:06 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Mithus]  
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Derid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mithus
Originally Posted By: Derid

Actually I would say their employer has the responsibility to dig them out in that case.

I would not say it is MY responsibility to pay to dig them out though. Except indirectly as I purchase goods made from whatever they were digging for... which that money ends up going to their employer, which should be responsible for rescuing their employees.

Making the gov't pay for it just encourages employers to send people into mines they know are unsafe because if something happens they would not be the ones footing the bill.



Is hard to put a concept to you, letīs change to a situation where kids get stuck in a cave while exploring a forest... OMG smile. Or for example 9/11 tragedy where people where stuck at debris and would tooooo expensive to save them, would you accept the "State" saying would be too expensive, why iīm asking this, i know your anwser because in your view, you are a indivudalist :), and you would answer is their responsability to put in that situation.


In the USA emergency services are handled at the State and local level. Sometimes people are in fact billed for said services if it is found that they needed them due to negligence. The Federal Govt has put in its hand at disaster management in recent years, to disasterous results.

Even though it is called the "National Guard", in the USA the National Guard is actually a form of State level militia. The NG is usually the responsible party for major disaster/rescue operations.

Also, you should be aware that you are not comparing similar issues. Managing someones health care for them is an ongoing task. Rescuing someone is an isolated Deed. There is a huge difference between managing a system like health care, and achieving one particular yet isolated result.

By the same token, using a situation that compares workers in a mine - who by definition are often in the mine, working and getting paid to be there, and are adults - to children who might find themselves in a bad situation due to happenstance , well this is actually quite illogical and fails to illustrate the concept you were going for.

In my experience people, at least in the USA, freely volunteer their time to help trapped or lost people, especially children, of their own volition. Usually the local govt organizes or assists... and the locals, including myself are happy to foot the tax bill for these types of services. If a local official does not do his job, it is relatively easy for the community to replace them... as opposed to a Federal Bureaucrat.. who has no accountability to anyone.

As far as your comment on being an "individual" you are mostly correct. The only proper ideal of gov't is that of individuals coming together to organize a system to PROTECT their rights. As opposed to a system that exists as its own justification to determine WHO HAS rights.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#92348 - 09/12/11 07:13 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Mithus]  
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Kaotic Offline
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I agree that the government should not pay for it. There are myriad organizations (that many of us give money to of our own free will) that are in existence for no reason other than to take care of folks who are unable to take care of themselves.

What the government can do to help people be able to afford medical care is to reform our legal system to curtail the frivolous law suits that drive up the cost of care. Additionally if they would like to provide some sort of tax incentive to provide medication and treatment at lower rates then that too is fine, but the wholesale take over and government running of the medical industry is unacceptable.

It is also worth pointing out that many (if not most) of the revolutionary treatments, that countries with socialized medicine use to save lives, were pioneered by those evil rich doctors and research companies in the U.S.A.


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#92352 - 09/12/11 07:38 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Mithus]  
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Vuldan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mithus
ok let put aside all the law and etcs, I just want to undersand how you guy view this

in a hypothetical case do you agree if a parcel of your popuation cannot pay for a private health care, they should not receive medical treatment, and the government with their power and resources that they get with your hard work from taxes should not intervene to give this parcel of population health care.

Is that correct to your point of view, I mean to you agree that they should no receive medical treatment because they cannot pay for that?


Hey Mithus,

The American form of Government was not created nor designed to do this. No government in the world has ever successfully sustained long term care and responsibility for its people except the monarchies of the arab states that have oil money. However, even Kuwait has started to withhdraw from and rethink other things like free medical care and college for all citizens. In the economies of today, a government can not sustain what it is supposed to sustain while taking care of people who do not need taking care of or who should have provided for their own care. This is the responsibility of the people and not the government. At best, it could be said that some care giving is the responsibility of the state and still not the federal government. Period.


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#92354 - 09/12/11 07:50 PM Re: VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY! [Re: Vuldan]  
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ok I understand yours point of view, and the point that you do not want federal interference.

But I find so intriguing you accept all the military spending of billions of U.S. dollars, when it could be invested in education, internal infrastructure, and a cheap unified federal health care system.

Last edited by Mithus; 09/12/11 07:51 PM.

Animal Ethics: "I tremble for my species when I reflect that god is just." Thomas Jefferson.
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