The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (SPECIAL ACCESS) KGB Political Debate Central VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY!

want to solve problem with imigrants? start jailing people that explore imigrant work, because they can pay less, hypocrisy if you say that didnt know it was imigrant, of course you want to pay less than you should pay for a native american.


If imigrants are criminals, what to talk about people that employ them, it´s remind me of slavery time, of course you pay them but is always less than regular citizen.

Imigrant and Drugs problems seems to share similarities,
as long people want to buy drugs, it will have people trying to sell them, as long people want to hire people to pay less that should pay, it will have people risking to enter the country ilegaly.

Jet, for me the discussion is and always has been about Federal level. I never thought you had any different idea since the topic was started via discussion of Presidential candidate, I thought it went without saying.

Mithus, I just laid out the reasons why not. What you are saying sounds good as a generalization, but the devil is in the details. Someone has to actually make it work. The difference in how were are looking at it could be summed up with an analogy about building a bridge.

You say " well, if we just gather some money from people and I guess buy some metal and stuff and maybe hire a few more folk to help put it up... we will have a bridge"

I say " well, to make this bridge work we need to figure out which material, how much it will weigh, how much it will cost. What the tension wire needs to be, what the foundation needs to be, how much overburden it can safely carry if all goes well... which cranes, bulldozers, etc we need to procure. Need to hire people with specific skills to do X and Y and Z jobs.. and so on and so forth. The nuts and bolts of building a bridge that will not collapse is an entirely different matter than conceptualizing the idea of building a bridge. If you do not work out all those details, even if a bridge ends up getting somehow build... it is most likely to quickly collapse and kill a bunch of people. Much like Socialized medicine.

Getting shit done is entirely different that the idea of getting shit done. One is easy, and one is hard.

And yes, we all see how France and England take care of people... and we also see how they are broke, have broken societies with almost no social mobility, have rampant and growing unrest and rioting. Both societies have been rotting for some time, both bought into the idea of taking care of everyone.... and both are quickly headed towards the fate of Greece.

ok, tell me how to solve the problem of you have your parent or your children with a serious medical problem with a expensive treatment, and you do not have money to pay for it?

Just let your child or you parent die?

I do not and will not endorse taking your money at gunpoint to deal with my family issues. I would ask that you had the same respect for me.

edit -

I forgot you are from Brazil. So you may or may not know that Constitutionally, in the USA, each State is actualy supposed to have a very high degree of autonomy. I actually have far fewer objections to assistance programs run at the state level and lower. Firstly, because it is actually Constitutional to do so.

Secondly, because the responsible govt officials are much closer to the population in terms of accountability.... the ratio of representation is also much better. If you have an issue with a Washington beauracrat.... good luck... your hosed unless you know a newspaper editor or have enough money to retain a skilled attorney.

At the state level, your still mostly screwed... but not quite as badly... and if it becomes a major issue for a lot of people it is relatively easy to hold elected officials accountable. Not easy, just much easier than holding the federal govt accountable... which is almost impossible.

Pretty much every State in the USA is larger either in terms of population or land... usually both... than quite a few actual countries in the world.. not to mention GDP and overall wealth. There is simply no reason to tie up a huge system like health care in one gigantic, opaque, unaccountable bureaucracy.

If people in Ohio want to cook up our own health care at the State level... then fine. But we sure as hell dont need people from Cali or DC or Chicago telling us what we need and how to do it.

When it comes to Government GIVING ANYTHING, it's not free. It's paid by taxes. We have security, we have programs that HELP with healthcare like Medicade and Medicare, States also have similar programs. There is help with Education as well, no it's not free but help is there and if you work hard enough for it, you can actually help yourself with public grants and such.



If you only make so much money per year, there's healthcare programs that will help, as I mentioned above. Our healthcare system needs to be reformed, but the Government SHOULD NOT by any means, take it over. Government bureaucracy is a large part of the problem with the way healthcare is here. Another one is for Instance, I live in Oklahoma I cannot buy healthcare Insurance in another state even if it's cheaper. So what this does is cut competition, which means Insurance companies can raise the price of Insurance. And without competition offering cheaper Insurance they don't have to worry about lowering their's. This is just a small part of a larger picture. But the main issue is, when you give Government more and more control over things like healthcare in your life, what else are they going to take? Today it's more taxes, Tomorrow it could be your guns, less rights, again MORE taxes. The left already wants all of this. And THAT is socialism... and that's a Government I DO NOT want to live in. If Socialism is such a grand scheme, all of Europe along with other countries around the world would be flourishing. Instead, they are in very deep debt.


Their problem with debt is they spend on the many social programs they have. We have our social programs as well that cost a lot of money. On top of everything else we do, we also send Billions of dollars of AID overseas to other countries. And yes, fighting two wars, along with Government spending out of control we are in great debt. If we had a Government that stayed within their means in spending, and that was more efficient it would ease a lot of our problems. Now if you want to go further, we could keep most of the AID we send overseas. That along with keeping spending under control and a new tax system, we could put a pretty big dent in our debt. So remember, nothing is FREE... it's all paid by taxes.

You can not put in the hands of private companies, certain essential services.

You can not put the defense of your country, your police, your education system in the hands of a private corporation, as you should not put the Health of your people on the hands of private corporation, because to them what matter is the profit, you cannot measure what´s the price of human life. You should not make decision on how much you cost a treatment.

There are essential services should be managed by government and security,education,health care are essential. It´s good remind why do you have a government, to promote the common good, which pillars are security,education,health.

So want to have profit? go fund a new software,automobile,food or whatever industry you like, there are some sectors that you cannot put profit as base of decisions.

You do not know the extension of a health system managed by a big corporation, they define every thing, you cannot fight against them.

The discussion about which level or branch of government like state or federal would be in charge of it, is another history and discussion.

The problem seems to be most of the people do not seperate federal and state and local govenment.
Welcome to the United STATES of America.

Anytime you have the government run anything it will cost twice as much as a private company can do it or it will fail.

You have the cost of hospital(and espensive equipmenst) you have the cost of doctors and medics, you have the cost of medicines, so over the work and cost of everything you still to pay for the profit of a big corporation that in truth do not do anything, but ditacted how much they will pay for the doctor and hospital and drugs for your payment?

I have to disagree.
You can put a price on someones lives: that's how much they cost to be saved. You could say everything must be done whatever the price in some things but if "whatever the price" include other people's work or rare resources it means either endorsing slavery or not caring about how better used those rare resource may be later on.
And guess what? Healthcare means people's work. So saying you don't care about how much it cost to save one life means you don't care about the hours doctors and nurses will have to work to save this person.

you spoke right, healthcare means people´s work, and like police officers, and other profission they are paid for the services. My concern is corporations that inflcuency doctors and nurses decisions on their work, like we see doctors saying things against those corporations.

I didnt understandt what you disagree, because I didnt say that doctors,nurses,medicines companies and etcs should not be well paid for their work.

I´m mainly saying that like security, education, health care would/should be a government matter because not everyone can pay for it, and everybody like in United declaration of Human Rights has the right to life and dignity.