The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (PUBLIC) The Pub Mosque

Dear President Obama: While we are at it, can we go ahead & put a beautiful statue of Lee Harvey Oswald on the grassy knoll in Dallas & maybe even throw a huge celebration shrine over the Pearl Harbor monument in honor of the Japanese victory that took place there .Yes, .........Mr.President, IT IS THE SAME THING as allowing a mosque to be built at Ground zero.

Theres an odd 600k Muslims in NYC by many estimates, and plenty died in the trade center attack. Why shouldn't they get a mosque if someone had the money to build it?

With all the legit reasons to fear, loathe and despite Obama - I always fail to see why so many choose to pick up on the meaningless. Birth certificate, closet Muslim, etc

I don't agree with the mosque being built at ground zero. But the grassy knoll isn't a religious issue, some try to say the Japanese attack on pearl harbor was but that's not the case either.

The government can't come in and say HELL NO you can't build a mosque. Because that would mean they can say hell no to other religions building places of worship wherever they want to as well. I may not be a smart man, but i'm pretty certain that wouldn't fly. Yes it's very bad taste building a mosque at a sight where a religious extremists carried out such an attack.

This President is even a bigger joke than Bush was, Thank god it's only 4 year terms. Maybe by the end of his term, only our great grand children will be heavily burden by our governments tax & spend bullshit. Fairtax act in 2011 bitches, get off your ass's and support it!

"Dear President Obama: While we are at it, can we go ahead & put a beautiful statue of Lee Harvey Oswald on the grassy knoll in Dallas & maybe even throw a huge celebration shrine over the Pearl Harbor monument in honor of the Japanese victory that took place there .Yes, .........Mr.President, IT IS THE SAME THING as allowing a mosque to be built at Ground zero."

LOL go overboard much. I am sure the grassy knoll is not for sale or rent. I would assume the Pearl Harbor Monument is safe as it is government property.

What ever side you are on, they have been given the go ahead from what ever council in New York that gives the ok. You can bitch or support all you want but the Obama can not tell anyone they can or cant do it, he is not all powerful.

From what I understand this is a few blocks from the Ground Zero. People talk like they are building it right smack dab in the middle of GZ.

You need to remember the building is a private building and anytime the government tries to tell private companies what they can or cant do I get my hackles up. Like the council that had to approve what they wanted to do pisses me off more then what they want to do with it.

this topic is too hot for TV, have fun discussing the roller coaster view points which all contradict each other, I'm too short to ride this ride.

I find it very interesting how we are expected to be tolerant of everyone even those who are not tolerant of us. Yet, we are never tolerant of our own. we tell a supreme court judge he has take the ten commandments from the court house even though our founding fathers believed in this. We tell our kids they cant practice their religion in school but, the most intolerent religion in the world is welcomed with open arms and embraced as the long lost son and given the keys to our cities. They honored at our universities and if a christian speaker were invited to campus by a group he would be denied the right to speak.
All I'm saying is how can we say we want freedom for everyone when we don't even offer it to our own. I think it's time we decide where our priorities truelly lie.

Who is "us" ?

Here listen to this. This is the church i go too. My pastor did alot of studying on the whole situation.

http://cfwcbmt.org/01%20IslamAndTheChurchInTheUS.mp3
http://cfwcbmt.org/8_29_10Islam2.mp3

He explains islam and muhammad.

Sharia law all i have to say about islam. Goggle it and be sick to your stomach.

He sounds a lot like that church in Florida that wants to burn the Qurans.

Mosque to worship how you want is fine with me

Having 60K Plus troops in 4 different countries for 113 known Al-Qaeda operatives is beyond silly yet we fund so much money to the VICTORY theory

we can argue about everything ... There are many many muslims overseas who do not share the same views as the extremist i can not hold all accountable for what a few have done

You people amaze me. You want to deny others the very rights you enjoy. You want to follow the rules of the constitution whenever it is convenient for you.



I think if your going to accuse an entire religion of something and try to limit where they can worship, then we need to make sure that no Catholic churches are withing 20 minutes of elementary schools.

This dangerous trend with the far right wing is really scary and you folks need to check yourselves. Persecuting people for their religious choices is UNAMERICAN.

Jet our country was built off Judeo–Christian believes. To me having someone build a mosque in the place where someone of the same religion blew it up on planes that is absurd. Leave that place alone rebuild the tower somewhere else. That is a reminder that Islam is a radical and violent religion. Im not basing my opinion off of muslims im basing mine off of Muhammad who wrote the quran and broke every rule in that book. Dont judge a christian off of what others christians do base it off of what Jesus Christ did.

Have you seriously read the Quran, and studied the history?

Not that I have. Since I havent, I tend to take any one source or type of source with a grain of salt.

The bottom line though, is regardless of the opinions of the "nation". The fact is, zoning issues and whatnot are a local issue. If the people of NYC do not want X,Y or Z build at whatever locale, its up to them do do something about it.

Anyone else making inflammatory comments is just trying to grab a spotlight. The part about blocking the Orthadox church is fucked up, I will agree. But instead of focusing on the faux pax of the local authorities - so many seem to be using this as an excuse to vent hate against Islam.

Holding the whole religeon accountable for the Islamist extremists is like holding all of Christendom accountable for the Ku Klux Klan.

I am not going to comment on the issue as I believe political discussions amoungst friends usually end up with flared tempers, distgusting outburts, and a few falling outs, HOWEVER I am glad you are all keeping yourselves somewhat level headed in this thread.

For the record: The area they are considering building the Mosque is actually 2 blocks away from the actual Ground Zero site, not on the site itself.
Old news article about location and first committee to approve site.

This is going in my sig. =P

I totally disagree. The founding fathers were clear about a separation of church and state. They were also very clear about freedom of religion. VERY CLEAR





Now lets move on to the Bible. It is filled with examples of God's cruelty and violence. In the link below are 1199 examples of this.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

You cant call out another religion if yours contains the same cruelty and violence.

The point I am making here is that anyone can worship anything they please an build a church, or in this case a "Community Center" (NOT A MOSQUE) if they have the money and backing.

San Francisco actually has the church of satan, and I dont see anyone raising hell about that.

Be careful you don't judge an entire faith by the most radical tiny fraction. Christians are dirty in that regard too.

I am not a Muslim, not do I agree with how they treat women, and other things, but in our system, they have as much right to worship as you or anyone else does. This is what makes our country great.

Lets not do what we did to the Japanese in WW2. If you remember, the Japanese American troops were some of the most decorated in all of WW2. Meanwhile we confiscated their land and property, and sent them to internment camps.

I have to agree with Jet.

Although Morally to me, I dont like the Idea, but they do have the rights to worship as they please.

The fact that the mosque is not at the actual ground zero site, does put my mind at ease.

I was raised Christian, although I have to say i am not as much a believer now as I was as a Kid. I do see why some would be offended.

But All religions have had Dirty dealings and bad things in their pasts. Honestly the world would be much better off with out it, but that will never happen.

Yeah as Derid pointed out, the KKK are Christians, and you don't see all Christians being judged by their actions.

What about the "Christians" that protest at the US Army soldiers funerals because they believe that their deaths are because "God hates fags".

Its the old "Not in my backyard" mentality that really scares me. People want all the rights for them, and yet want to deny them for others.

Although you don't see the kkk setting up a multi-million dollar worship center near anything that has to do with black history. How would you react if they wanted to setup a worship center on martin luther king boulevard? Sure they have the right to do so, but it doesn't mean it's right to do it.

The point I think, was that the folk who are building the mosque/wanting to build the mosque arent the kkk/islamists.

The proper analogy here, is how would you feel if other folk who claimed to be Christian (and maybe still happened to be white) but were not affiliated with the kkk wanted to build a worship center/church on Martin Luther King Blvd.

So here's my main beef with the mosque, the state department is footing the bill for this Imam to fly to the middle east to try and gather the funds for this mult-million dollar mosque. Sending some dude across the map to get funds from god knows who, just isn't getting it with me. And THAT is my main problem with it.

Why not specify that as the problem then?

Specific issues like the conduct of the State Dept in regards to funds allocation, and treatment of an Orthodox congregation that may have gotten the shaft are separate issues - even if related in this context.

It is quite reasonable, I think, to say " Our govt should not be spending cash to fly religious figures around the world on their private fund raising journeys." Honestly I do not think that taxpayers should foot the bill for that sort of activity regardless of religion or denomination.

ROFL, nice word play...

As i said before i wont defend christians but i will defend jesus christ and the bible. You dont judge a christian by what another christian does judge them by what Jesus Christ did. Just like muslims i dont judge them by what other muslims do i judge what muhammad did.

I just feel to build a mosque there isnt right not so say they could build it anywhere else in NYC and they have been offered that and they want that particular spot.

We can argue over this all day long but only the people living in nyc can really say anything about the mosque.

The earlier kkk may have been anti-catholic, but they considered themselves very religious protestants. Catholics and protestants have a long history of killing each other actually, but in any case you know well what I was saying and you also know the point is not any less valid. Pick any nutcase group you wish that espouses Christian ideology - there have been plenty over the years, and make the same analogy.

Most if not all organized religions have plenty of blood on their hands. You saying "look at what Jesus vs Mohammad did" is also a religious argument, arguing your religion vs theirs. And while there is nothing wrong with that, bringing it into a political discussion in the USA is not particularly compelling - unless you/your groups also have a goal of setting up a theocracy like Iran has. In which case, comparative theology suddenly becomes very pertinent.

Good reading

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/opinion/08mosque.html?_r=1

it was a good read Jet.




Funny thing is islam also means SUBMISSION. granted it is submission to the will of God... But still means Submit.


Guess it is a good thing I am not muslim... as I probly would be stoned to death.. and not by WEED lol

Yeah Val,

I figure I will wait until one of these gods shows up then beg for forgiveness to whichever one is real. Until then, I am on my own.

If they can build a Mosque at ground zero I want a fucking McDonald's at the black odalisque in Mecca serving fucking Beef Patties and McRib Pork Sandwich's to all the Pilgram's.

Then they can build a Mosque at the tomb of the unknown soldier for all I care.

I've struggled with this issue for several weeks now and I've decided that I don't care where this cat builds his "community center." Jet is exactly right. We cannot practice our religions, forbid others the same freedom, and still claim to be a free nation. I do however, think that building a Muslim shrine of any kind at, or near, ground zero is incredibly insensitive and I personally think that it is designed to stir up the kind of animosity that it has. They have put us in a no win situation and that was, I believe, their goal. If we forbid it we are hypocrites, and if we allow it without any protest, then we've proven we'll roll over and take whatever the extremists want to throw at us.

What I would like to know is where every single dime of his funding comes from. Last accounts I heard his organization had a few thousand dollars for a project that will cost tens of millions. As long as this guy can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that not one red cent comes from an extremist group them I don't care what he does.

I do take issue with the fact that I'm paying for him to fly around the world to raise his funds. Why can't I take trips with my own tax payer dollars??? For that matter, why do I have to pay every time an elected official (or their wives) want to take a vacation? Don't they work for me? That is tantamount to me telling my employer, "Hey, I'm going to France for a week. I'll just use my company card and you guys can pay for it when I'm done." Who here thinks they would still have a job after that?

On a related note. I think in order to be all inclusive we should help out the poor suffering homosexual Muslims (cause you're born that way right? So, some of them must be). I say we build a gay bar across the street with a Muslim theme to make them feel welcome. We can call it "You Mecca Me Horny." Discuss

I think the bar idea is comedy gold TBH

LOL nice Bar idea there Kaotic!

I agree with Tas, although Kaotics gay bar Idea would be fucking hilarious! And don't even get me started on these fucktard politicians, I think they ALL should wash their mouths out with a revolver.

What it is mostly about is them (political/religious Muslims)thumbing there nose at us and using our rules we use to govern ourselves against us, making sure to put us in a no win situation in which we have to succumb to our sensabilities of fair play and freedome while laughing at us behind our backs about how they just got over on those stupid Americans again.

Portland is Muslim hot spot, and I have quite a few Muslim friends. When they are being honest about issues like this, then they openly admit that it is an open attack on Western values and Ideals in an attempt to force us to slit our own throat.

At some point you have to draw a fucking line in the sand and say, we will not go beyond this point, anything beyond this point is to far, and must be pushed back.

It is fucking left wing "fair play" individuals in this nation that think and try to postulate our Ideals and apply them to individuals, nations, and religious that could give two shits about our Ideals.

Try traveling some out of North America, and when you talk to people they usually ask in some form "When is the US going to stop being such pansy ass bitch's and letting the rest of the world walk all over your sense of fair play, freedom, and morals. The rest of the world get's it that life isn't fair, there is no such thing as true freedom, and morals are for the rich."

I disagree that morals are for the rich. I've done some shitty things that I'm not proud of, but I do try to live by a moral code and I always do my best to act with the highest ethical standards in both my personal and professional life. Sometimes it seems like others get ahead of me because I'm not willing to do certain things, but I can look myself in the mirror everyday and never feel guilty about the things I have done. No stand I've taken has done me irreparable damage. That's not to say that some haven't been painful, but in the end I'm much happier that I took those stands rather than roll over and then have to live with myself afterward.

As for true freedom. We are the closest thing that has ever existed on this earth to true freedom, and we have been slowly losing it over the past 100 years. More quickly in the last decade or 2. As soon as the government and the self appointed elite start deciding that they know best and us little people should sit down, shut up, and do as we're told, then freedom begins to dissolve. For us that happened right around the turn of the century and really ramped up at the end of the 20s. I don't know how we get it back, but I know that regular debate like this, and educating ourselves is a good start. I also know that it won't hurt in November when I vote for the guy that doesn't have incumbent next to his name, and if I have the option to vote for some one that doesn't have an "R" or a "D" I'm going to do that as well.

I agree that the incumbents should be out. As for the R or D I have the same feelings, neither has done anything to earn a spot in the seat. In fact FUCK both of them. They are more the problem than the solution!

This may be suprising to you but I think what that pastor is doing is appalling. By doing that it makes him no better than than the people he has a problem with. I firmly believe that if you want to change the world you do it through love not hate. I do find it amazing how the media has turned this into a story it wouldn't be had they chose not to make it that way. I think that all freedoms should come with resposibility. to disrepect someones religion in such a public fashion is just wrong.

nowhere in the constitution does it say seperation of church and state that is an interpurtation. it simply says the government shall make no laws concerning religion.

Here's my final thought on the subject. I do belive in freedom of religion. But, the question remains how far does that go. You can not agrue the fact millions of muslims around the world cheered the day the towers fell and that millions of muslims around the world firmly believe in the extermination of all other religions. That being said we have to be careful that we don't become as our enemies are. We must be willing to be open to listen to all people and faiths. But, not to the extent of insulting the innocent people that have died and their families. If the muslim people were sincere in the intentions they could possibly build a memorial to all the people that died that day, and as gesture good faith offer an apology for what others have done in the name of Allah. Likewise their have been many atrocities committed by christian religions and they should step up to the plate and say we do not agree to this and do not believe in it, as has been done over the burning of the Quaran. Anyone that commits acts of violence and hatered in the name of God has a special place in hell. IMHO

Actually it is rather implied, Jefferson himself wrote extensively on the subject when he was president.

My .02


Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD.


Yep, they can build it. It's a freedom thing. However, they should NOT be surprised at the Epic Violence
that will likely be visited upon the place daily because someone is too short sighted ( or arrogant )
to realize what is going to happen.

It would be like wearing a Mushroom Cloud T-Shirt to Hiroshima . . . . you can explain your freedom of
expression to the folks kicking your ass all you like, but it isn't going to change the fact you're going to
get your ass kicked . . .

Don't poke bears with sticks and expect sympathy when he eats your ass.
Apparently common sense is rare among the Muslims as well ( at least the ones who think this is a great idea ) . . . . lol

This interview with the Imam wanting to build the mosque is interesting. It sure sounds like to me that he's saying that if the mosque isn't built there will be violence from muslims in the middle east. This is sounding like an ultimatum, build it or face attacks! It's about the 9 minute mark where he talks about it becoming violent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iTIQQ9bmMU

You said it very well.

Maybe that's why they don't want to build it on ground zero but some blocks away.
And there's one simple mean to fight the muslims : make a point to apply your countries laws and not their Sharia shit. No double standard : you fuck up you go to jail. You try to rob / assault someone, don't cry cause she killed you with her gun.

That's what fuck us in Europe : the individual got stripped of all right to defend themselves so violence raised, then politicians cash on the insecurity to get elected so they don't let the police do their job which would be to apply the law to some of those fuckers.

When a "youngster" gets shot and killed by the police in France, people think it's "normal" for his friend to protest fucking up a whole city.
When it happens in swiss, people cheer up for the policemen and there's no "protest".
So defend your right to defend yourself, make a point to see your law being applied and don't let those Sharia stupidity enter any law book. Embrace your constitution so they can't kill the spirit of your nation. That's how you defend your values, not by throwing some of them out when you don't like them.

"Actually it is rather implied, Jefferson himself wrote extensively on the subject when he was president."

Another subject that we could spend many pages on.


With out looking at my papers, Jefferson wrote to a Baptist church that a wall between church and state was more to protect the church not keep religion out of politics. This is one of the reasons for the revolution. Granted he was against the Gov to show any form of religion, even Thanksgiving.

Sorry this is one that gets me excited, I love constitutional talk.

Yeah, and the issue here was protecting a church - well, the Islamic equivalent of one.

I think Arkh has made the best post in the thread though, getting right to the heart of the matter - from a perspective of living in a place where collectivism and govt interventionism is rampant.

Tasorin had it right. I am amazed by what some very smart people believe, they hate us, our way of life, our freedom. People seem to forget we didn’t do anything to them and they brought down the towers. Please don’t give me crap about our governments policies being the reason…..no reasonable semi-sane person really thinks that’s an excuse for mass murder.

It's their way or the grave way.

Even the most moderate Muslim countries are backwards as hell in the way they treat women and people with unconventional lifestyles.

They have every right to build it, but it's just plain wrong and if the intent was to bring about understanding and communication I really want to meet that genius! It will be celebrated around the world as a victory monument over the western devils and I will never buy anything else.

I am so tired of hearing about how we have to be tolerant.....why? That’s like saying the murder victims family has to be understanding of the how the killer was raised and his motivation. How about they learn a little tolerance and then we can start the dialogue? Until then they see our efforts at talk and reason as weakness not strength....sure we know different but this is not about us.
America is not perfect. We are not, nor have we ever been perfect or completely fair but we are as close as this world offers.

Oh and Jet any good Christian will tell you the old testament was done away with when Jesus died on the cross and a new set of rules was set in place all about peace, love and understanding. I am a heathen so I don’t care one way or the other but if you need rules to live by the 10 from on the mountain are a good place to start.

Interesting discussions you are having. Sorry Derid, but this one you are half wrong about. The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. He was attempting to calm the fears of Baptists in Danbury Connecticut and was lettign them know that they were going to be protected from interferrence from the state, but that they would still have some say in how the state ran. Basically the state can not tell the church how to run, but the church could still have some control on the state. You can find more information on it through the US Constitution site. It is a common misunderstanding. Jefferson was very clear about his belief that the government stay out of and have no control on religion, any religion.


It has been an interesting read, and I would not involve myself to much except that I spent 22 years defending the CONSTITUTION of the United States, and as such, whether anyone likes it or not, they have the right to worship as they see fit, where there see fit..thus, the Mosque at Ground Zero. And as such, the preacher in Florida has the right as an American to burn the Quran. Someone before me already stated, just because they have the right to do so does not mean they should do so.

I have done some extensive study on the religions of the world. I will stay completely out of that discussion out of respect for the all the different belief systems here. How you believe is not for me to question or change. Time will tell on both of these issues, and I predict they will both result in acts of violence as people with petty minds and beliefs react rather than respond.

Vuldan you sissy pants, don't play nice now come on out and say it the way you feel it.

I don't understand why you can burn a bible and any other religious book in the world but not the mighty Quran... they are all just books.

Have we (Nation) sunk so low, or are we so weak that just the mention of something that might happen scares us to death.

You would hope we could all respect each other’s Holy books; after all it does not really cost us anything..... but damn I hate to be threatened.

I just do not understand why everything about Muslims has to be on their terms or else and what does that say about us that we cave so easily.

10 yrs Army.... America and my belief in our way of life is my religion.

Vuldan, I thought that was what I was saying. In any case, my understanding was the religios folk having some say was the same as any other persons/group having some say - not as a "Church" but as citizens.

However, I am under the understanding that this "say" is also limited by the fact that all religions have the same freedom from interference, which implies limited roles of religion in government - since it is self-evident that due to differences in principles and beliefs - govt taking the image of one particular religion or sect would automatically entail discrimination against another.

Or in other words, the only practical way to treat each religion equally is to maintain a wall of seperation; though the term as coined was in regards to govt effecting religion - I believe subsequent Supreme Court rulings have established that the separation goes both ways.

Of course, debate still occurs around the topic of exactly what is and is not constitutionally permissible.

the most amazing fact is that we live in a country were we can have such a discussion as part of normal civil discourse, without the fear of governmental intervention. That we can talk and share our differrences without it leading to mass bloodshed and bombings, or the government imprisoning us is what makes our country and the people in it the greatest in the world. Sorry, don't mean to sound elitist, thats just how I truly feel.

LOL. I was saying exactly what I think about this particular arguement. There are a lot of right facts in this arguement and wrong ones, and I was simply trying to balance some perspectives. None of the arguement was about whether I thought we should do this or that, but what was legally, constitutionally and ethically right.

At the basic core, my statement was clarification. I have absolutely no love for any religion, period. Notice I say "religion". That is my choice, and my freedom. Islam and the muslim faith is still so far behind the rest of the world in terms of simple belief structures and basic human rights within the religion that it is almost barbaric in some cases. Christianity can rarely claim a higher calling either. According to David Barrett et al, editors of the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and many smaller ones. 34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. And the funniest part if all that is each one thinks THEY are right. Give me a freakin break.

No Banshee, it was not sissy pants you raving southern psychopath, it was about rights and the Constitution. We do not have to like a thing, we do not have to agree with a thing, we do not even have to accept a thing, for it to be something I will defend as a right of someone to do under the Constitution. That was all I was saying. The hawk part of my mind has a completely different response to it all. At the basic level, neither the Mosque in New York City nor the minister in Florida would fair well.

/agree 100%

Like I
said there is only 2 religions in this world. True and false

This one being the true one.

I have actually read and studied a non King James Bible, The Qu'ran, and the Torah. Call it a side effect of a deeply ecumenical Father at a Catholic School who believed the more you knew about someones belief system and dogma the better you could understand there point and position and the easier it is to have an open informed dialogue.

Its real real real easy. There is only one Yahweh, and that cosmic force is the God of Abraham, the Father of Jesus, and the inspiration and guiding light of the prophet Muhammad, end of discussion.

There is only "People of The Book" and "People not of the Book"

The problem isn't the dogmatic structures of these three Religions, the problem is in almost cultist fanaticism that is wrapped in the shroud of these religions that exist in each of these 3 Religions.

Extremist Muslims are borderline Fascists bent on spreading the word of Islam by the sword. Fanatic Christians, while less militant in nature are just as insidious as they spew rhetoric and stir emotions based on lies and deceit in the name of Christ. Militant Hebrews/Jews who seek the destruction or removal of any of there 5,000 year old territorial enemies in the holy lands are right up there in the Bullshit Factor.

I am actually a member and have the silver emblem on my car!

My Father had the same idea, only from a different viewpoint being the extreme right wing he is. My open and curious mind was "allowed" to drift so as to learn how to exploit the weaknesses prevalent in doctrinal organized religions, specifically Muslim beliefs.

Essentially "know their beliefs so that you can better kill them." It's a extreme version of know thine enemy, and just so you know my Father is a racist, and a fanatic old cold war warrior, some things die hard or never die in his case. I do not subscribe to his beliefs, I simply find other religions fascinating and historic in nature.

LOL..well, if nothing else we three were certainly raised by a like minded generation.

Vuldan I liked the last part better than any of it, so tired of the politically correct speak about legal and such not..... some things are right and some things are wrong simple as that. Just because you can do something or get away with it does not mean you should. Who you are is determined by the choices you make when nobody is around or looking at you.

As the old saying goes you meet them on the beaches with fine words and reason I will meet them with my gun(when I buy one), I like my chances better.

I think what some of you are saying has a lot of merit.

The point I am trying to get across more than anything, is to be specific about your beliefs. What scares me is when I see "group-think" hate-trains, and "mob herd" mentality.

Not because I give two shits whether or not people like Islam, but because that type of mentality is so often and easily exploited by demagogues and tyrants. Nothing quite gets people to shuck off their principles and liberty, than falling into the " us vs them" mentality.

The saddest part of it all is that all these so called religous people in their high and mighty temples and churches and mosques, yet still they're are millions of starving people in the world, children dieing of aids, people with no shelter, no homes, no clean water to drink. They seemed to have all missed the picture. It would seem to me that they are more interested in growwing their ranks than helping their fellow man. The problem with this world is very simpley put, lack of compassion for other people! The solution is not simple how do get people to care more about others than they do their self.

Its more sad it is us americans with no jobs and Vets all over with no homes

Wow. You have no idea how much money,time,lives are given to less fortunate people just from Americans alone. I wont even break it down to religion organizations or private.
Your statement that we have a lack of compassion shows your ignorance.

Billions of dollars and millions of man hours are given to the poor and needy yearly.
Get off your fucking soap box.

sometimes the ones who need that help the most never receive it due to the systems in place, and it's that minority that I think most people talk about when they talk about a lack of help. I think that is where Rep is coming from, and I can certainly attest to that with the struggles I went through to get help when I needed it the most, I still could use some help though I am doing better now thanks to my own efforts and a few key individuals. However when it was at it's worst I could get no help from any organization based on my status, and the perceived notion I could magically produce the resources I needed on my own because of my age, race, ability, or lack of kids. Most organizations or assistance is based off of certain criteria and it is very specific so you cannot always get the help you need when you need it, and if you do you must meet the criteria every day that you are on assistance or boom your off it before you can even get your legs firmly under you.

That's an unfortunate result of a nearly moralless society...

Blame the people who work the system and abuse the moralless people who donate time and money to help the people who need help.

I personally know a family that gets a shit load of assistance and yet some how find the money to make it to Disney World every year.

I don't blame anyone, I blame myself for the choices I have made, and the things and people I have lost

It was more of a comment to kaotic then you.

This will give you an idea how much we as a moralless society as Kaotic put it gives.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/cpid/736/print/1.htm

This proves how we suck.

No I know Helemoto, I wasn't really trying to direct the comment but more to state my personal thoughts on how someone who is in need thinks.

Yes understand tons of money and time is given but it is a drop in the bucket compared to what could be done if people stopped fighting and trying to be the biggest on the block. The uglu fact of the matter is that hunger, poverty, homelesness, and orphaness with out help still exists, and exists in the millions and the resources are available within the religions of the world to fix it but yet they divert so much of their money and time to fighting each other that they can't solve the problem. As a matter of fact the hatred and discrmination that they create worsens the problem. Now if you want call me ingnorant for thaat it's your right but it doesn;t change the facts. The fact is that the worls religions spend billions of dollars on temples, mosques, and millions of hours of time teach hatered of other religions and cultures that if redirected could help millions of people in need. The minute you say something about it they call you ignorant and say we give millions every year.

to show how indemic the problem that Drakiis is talkin about is the government spent $570 million dollars on programs to help people liveing in poverty on 2007. In 2007 there were aprox. 57 million people in America living below the poverty line. Throwing money at the problem and hoping it will go away is not the answer.

The answer to poverty lies in the govt doing less, not more.

Govt, fundamentally, produces nothing. It simply uses force of arms to redistribute productivity. In some cases this is necessary, as money and goods are needed to form a common defense and providing a common infrastructure seems to have worked out pretty well.

To much meddling though, and govt starts unduly interfering with the lives and commerce of those who produce. It is self-evident that a society with abundance of productivity affords greater opportunity to those in poverty to find a way out of poverty. Where productivity is scarce, there is stiffer competition for resources ergo the opportunities to escape poverty are smaller.

I am a catholic and I don't hear my religious leaders telling me to go out and hate others based on their religion. I hear them say go out and help more, give more you greedy bastards.

StValentines comment that the religions of the world fight each other and waste money on their religious buildings. They have and need the buildings, or do you expect them to work out of tents.

Last I looked the only religions fighting each other are the Jews and muslims with the Jews defending themselves.

We have been a country for 234 years. Why is it our fault most of the world just discovered indoor plumbing. We are the or were the richest country in the world and we give the most to the world not just in money or time spent helping the less fortunate. The world is a better place with us in it then without us. When people down grade us I get pissed.

Ronald Reagan said "America is a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere."
This still holds true,people still flock here.

You are putting your anger to religion saying they don't help enough. Your anger should be put to its proper place GOVERNMENTS. They are the ones that fuck shit up.

However our society has changed from producing to consuming and taking advantage of systems that are in place to help those who really need it, this in turn has made those systems more demanding and paranoid or suspicious of those who ask for the assistance which in turn makes it very difficult if not impossible for those in need to receive assistance that is also available to those who drain the system to provide them extra when they may not really need it, not to mention the frivolous spending our governments and assistant programs do outside of offering help, like flying their top employees first class, or bailing out companies who should shoulder their own economic burdens if they expect the rest of the populous to do so.

This is all win, I agree with RR, he did say it best we are a "shining city" there are roles in the global community that each nation will inevitably fall into, and America will undoubtedly become the worlds police force, of course with other nations adding additional assistance. Our country is built on the industrial military complex of Roman Empire design whether we want to admit it or not. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to that, but sufficed to say Organized religion has it's down side but is not to fully blame.