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Originally Posted by rhaikh
These companies are acting in accordance with the laws and their own interests. Those they have turned away have viable alternatives available to them.

Re: Market will provide alternatives argument. And this is exactly why silicon valley trying to kill Gab so hard?
Re: This is not against the law argument. The companies that dumped toxic waste into Cuyahoga river until it caught fire multiple times were also acting in accordance with the laws and their own commercial interests.

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Have you paused to consider why enough people felt that disruption is warranted and voted for Trump? Whatever you think of Trump, some normal people voted for him, he couldn't have possibly got elected just on crazy vote alone. I propose that these normal people voted for Trump seeking relief from censorship. This often comes up as anti political correctness complaining, but the root of this issue isn't that this or that is deemed offensive, but that some topics are made taboo to discuss, and these topics are exponentially multiplying in number.

I read recently that Twitter banned some radfem for "Women Aren't Men" post. You have to be all kinds of woke to even begin to understand why this ban happened.


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Why yes, I have thought a lot about this. My opinion is that propagandists like you and most of the links you've provided here are blowing your wind, not just at me, but at the sails of this fascist movement. And yet, when cornered, you can still provide no concrete solution. Fascists are happy to take up your slack.

Originally Posted by Sini
The companies that dumped toxic waste into Cuyahoga river until it caught fire multiple times were also acting in accordance with the laws and their own commercial interests.


There's a great example of behavior which I can propose concrete legislation to curtail. Your turn.


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It's been a while since this happened and the details are fuzzy (and I'm too lazy to go and re-read everything). Can someone refresh me on this detail: This piece that got the guy fired, did it go through an editorial process, or did he just post/publish it on his own? If the former, did the editor that allowed it to be published get similarly sacked and smeared, and if not why? If the latter, I 100% agree with Taco's position that in the workplace, actions that go against the interests of your employer can and should have consequences up to and including termination.

In either case, I would also be inclined to agree with Taco that this doesn't feel like chilling free speech. Instead it was a business responding to its patrons voiced opposition to a particular piece in a way consistent with its best interests. The fact that the only way to satisfy its patrons was to fire the guy is more of an indictment of the "everything offends me" syndrome in society today than anything else, but it does not constitute an attack on free speech in my opinion.

Last edited by Brutal; 01/07/19 09:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Brutal
It's been a while since this happened and the details are fuzzy


The actual details of the case aren't very important for this argument, because 1) the company's stated reasons for firing their lead editor over this were that he did not use the normal editorial process, and they believe the piece wouldn't have been published if he had, 2) that stated reasoning is not important with respect to the argument that the action had the effect of chilling speech. In this context, I have been essentially arguing the merits of a hypothetical medium-low circulation publisher explicitly banning a political opinion from their circulation.


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Ok so the guy that got fired was in fact the editor. Makes perfect sense to me, and I agree with you - this does not chill free speech, only lets the publication's consumers know they will only get their own political views mirrored back at them (the merits of which are debatable and not relevant to this topic).

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Joe Rogan discussing call out culture with Jonathan Haidt , co-author of The Coddling of the American Mind.



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Originally Posted by rhaikh
My opinion is that propagandists like you and most of the links you've provided here are blowing your wind, not just at me, but at the sails of this fascist movement. And yet, when cornered, you can still provide no concrete solution. Fascists are happy to take up your slack.


Back to calling me fascist? I am disappointed in you.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
There's a great example of behavior which I can propose concrete legislation to curtail. Your turn.


Virtual meeting space is not any different from physical public space, if you allow everyone in, then you are not allowed to exclude people based on protected characteristics (age, disability, gender, marriage and civil partnership, race, religion or belief (which includes political belief), sex and sexual orientation.

In more accessible terms - if you can't fire someone for being card-carrying MAGA person, then you shouldn't be able to ban them from social media.



Last edited by Sini; 01/07/19 05:02 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sini
Back to calling me fascist? I am disappointed in you.


Happy to go back to straight up ignoring you for misrepresenting my carefully chosen words, if you'd prefer.

Originally Posted by Sini
if you allow everyone in, then you are not allowed to exclude people


This definition is self-referential and therefore applies to nobody.


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Originally Posted by Sini
Back to calling me fascist? I am disappointed in you.


By the way, my intention with voicing this opinion is not to turn you off. It's to set up the conclusion to my argument.

Once you come to an agreement that, except in essentially hypothetical future scenarios, there is no tangible law that can be applied which will increase overall freedom of expression; the next step is to question who benefits from the incredible amount of money spent to keep these vapid arguments in the zeitgeist. It is exactly those people who wish to limit freedom of expression when it's opposed to their interests.


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I fundamentally disagree with you that censorship is hypothetical. Sure, right now it is mostly targeted at racists+, but it doesn't matter that targets are ultimately deserving, if these people don't have freedom of speech then nobody does. Do you at least agree with me on this proposition? That is, do you believe that there could exist society where racists and only racists are censored?

I also disagree with you that we can't do anything about it legislatively. We absolutely can and should. If machinery of censorship allowed to stand it is only matter of short time until it is turned into a weapon that even you would recognize as too damaging.

Your "the next step" and "the sails of this fascist movement" is a cliche and absurd knee jerk into guilt by association. Considering that you have done this multiple times now, I am not willing to chalk it to misunderstanding or poor choice of words. I don't expect much out of Internet, but willful, borderline malicious smearing is essentially at the core of malaise that have taken over the left. What do you hope to gain by attempting these character assassinations? There isn't anyone here to give you likes or retweets. Do you think I might be persuaded or desist by you insinuating I might be a Nazi-sympathizer? Can you at least try to behave as a civilized and thoughtful person instead of a deranged teenager high on a wave of social media attention? That is, have you considered that I might be genuinely concerned about freedom of speech without ulterior motives?

I hope you watched the linked video on call-out culture. When I watched it I thought of you and motivations for your behavior.

Last edited by Sini; 01/08/19 07:50 PM.

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