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#145322 - 05/17/18 12:00 AM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
That analysis is exactly why I can't debate with you guys. You made it four paragraphs before you stopped listening and started changing the debate.


You can't build a valid argument out of failed premise. When I start with: "Suppose Derid is a lizard person..." everything that follows may still be true, but you no longer have to consider the argument because I don't offer a valid justification for my beliefs. It is possible to believe right things for a wrong reason, but it isn't possible to be justified in doing so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree


#145323 - 05/17/18 12:03 AM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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#145324 - 05/17/18 12:20 AM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Derid]  
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Originally Posted by Derid
Apparently new left tactic is to take much of what they loath about certain elements of the right and copy it.


I wish I could disagree with this.


#145325 - 05/17/18 09:20 AM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted by Sini


First off, I don't buy the parallel between inciting terrorism and the coddling of the right - There are obvious and extreme socioeconomic and geopolitical differences at play amongst the targeted populations, which has been conveniently ignored here.

However, if you accept that it is a valid comparison, then the reverse statement is also true: The right is being hypocritical in their demands for coddling now, when they rejected it then for others.

I agree with Jamelle Bouie's followup to the quoted tweet which is
Quote
and this is granting the claim that there is an epidemic of liberals labeling Americans racist, which is asserted but not actually supported with evidence in this piece.


and therefore disagree with the premise Claire Lehmann presents which is based on direct insult. When those on the right are personally insulted when presented with evidence of racially motivated policy and power derived from bigotry, perhaps it is due to projecting.

Last edited by rhaikh; 05/17/18 09:26 AM.

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#145326 - 05/17/18 05:42 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini


First off, I don't buy the parallel between inciting terrorism and the coddling of the right - There are obvious and extreme socioeconomic and geopolitical differences at play amongst the targeted populations, which has been conveniently ignored here.



I will respond to your previous post when I get some time, but for now - I think its important to realize that principles remain constant even when details change. And the principle at work here is:

Originally Posted by Connor
Indeed, it is the easiest of cases: It merely requires being more rigorous about the truth.


It's really that simple. You cannot lump people together just because it feels good to do so, and expect rational people to fall in line with that. Just because Fox may attempt at various times to pander to both certain elements of the far-right, and elements of the center-right and center, does not mean that they are all the same. It just means that Fox tries to draw in many different markets.


I feel a need to once more quote Confucius:

Quote
If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music do not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot. Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately, and also that what he speaks may be carried out appropriately.


What Confucius was referring to was precisely rigor in applying labels, specifically social labels. To wit: if you allow your language and thinking to become muddled and inaccurate, chaos ensues and things go to shit.

No matter how strongly someone feels about some particular issue or how much they loathe people who hold different positions than themselves, in the long run no good will come from trying to achieve your ends by invoking logical fallacies to justify misusing labels.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#145332 - 05/22/18 09:49 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Derid]  
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Originally Posted by Derid
It's really that simple. You cannot lump people together just because it feels good to do so


Both Derid and rhaikh are two crazy homeless people shouting at each about racism. I won't listen to anything any crazy person have to say, because they are often wrong.


#145376 - 05/31/18 04:06 AM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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https://quillette.com/2018/05/28/sam-harris-not-ezra-klein-one-making-space-people-colour/

Covers about 80% of the points I would want to make, but have been too lazy to write up


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#145377 - 05/31/18 03:21 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Derid]  
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The risk of trying to engage in political debate as individuals is being drowned out by the various tribes in opposition. The reality is that as a matter of self interest it's better to throw your support behind the group that most closely identifies with your set of values. This is a shitty way to go about things, but better than jumping off a cliff.

But Sam Harris is probably right. The real irony is that if Sam Harris were to run for political office I would vote for him, as would many other people, because I think he would be a good representative my 'tribe.' In other words, in our current political system, it's next to impossible to separate identity politics from politics.

#145378 - 06/01/18 09:07 AM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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https://fair.org/home/the-tired-trope-of-blaming-trump-on-liberal-smugness/

Quote
One might expect a political science professor like Alexander would be eager to cite professional research or an academic study or two to finally prove the liberal-smugness effect. Notably, neither he nor his fellow conservatives ever bother with this step—and the mainstream op-ed editors giving them a platform don’t seem to care. Instead, it is enough to simply state the claim as self-evident, or to quote a handful of random people who make sweeping claims about the abuse they face from unnamed liberals, as a way to justify what could just as easily be fairly predictable, baked-in support for Trump by Republicans.


Quote
a University of Maryland working paper that studied reactions to the 2016 election cast doubt on the premise of liberal shaming driving conservatives further toward the right. As it noted, there was no statistically significant evidence of a backlash by conservative voters when confronted with liberal critiques of Trump being racist. In fact, the paper found that conservative racial animus in response to liberal election messaging was rooted in pre-existing biases, which is why those same conservatives also rejected claims of Trump’s racism that came from Republicans. Or, as the paper concludes:

"Racially conservative whites are resistant to a racialized counter-strategy. In other words, they are motivated to reject information critical of their preferred candidate because it is inconsistent with their existing racial attitudes and views about the candidate."

This study dovetails with an analysis done by The Nation (5/8/17) of pre- and post-election surveys which found that racial resentment, not economic anxiety, played an instrumental—and consistent—role in support for Trump during the last presidential campaign.


Harris et. al. are at best just enabling conservatives to prolong their avoidance of this introspection via their pseudointellectual drivel, and at worst can be legitimately blamed for being the actual ... (vanguard? storm front? I think I need a thesaurus) who are fueling the alt right.

https://www.wired.com/story/sam-harris-and-the-myth-of-perfectly-rational-thought/
https://www.splcenter.org/20180419/mcinnes-molyneux-and-4chan-investigating-pathways-alt-right


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#145379 - 06/01/18 10:19 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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Rhaikh, what are key ideas Harris is known for? Before I engage with you on this topic, I want to make sure we are actually talking about the same person.

As to your proposition that conservatives are inherently racist, do you realize that logical conclusion of this position is to conclude that racism isn't a big deal? After all, if X is a natural trait someone is born with, according to critical theory that is predominant at the left, it would be immoral to criticize a group of people on such basis.

So, I guess, stop racist-shaming conservative white folk, it is very racist of you to do so?


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