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I disagree largely with your opinion, but on a basis which is immaterial to my case as to why perceptions of racism are relevant to discussions of most GOP policy. I recognize that the Democrats are no saints, but their modern history and the foundations of their political power are also not tainted in explicit racism.

Last edited by rhaikh; 05/01/18 10:10 AM.

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Unless you define it as "since the last elections", why is modern history relevant? Both parties operate in 'next election' mode and hyper partisanship is a recent development. You could claim that Democratic party in recent history advocated worker's rights, and was the party of labor. However, it isn't the case right now, as they become a party of identity politics.

For example, immigration. Democrats absolutely love malign conservative as racists over this. However, as a critical thinker you must acknowledge that there are non-racist reasons to oppose it. Especially illegal economic immigration. Yet, such acknowledgment is completely absent from any Democratic narrative.


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Originally Posted by Sini
Unless you define it as "since the last elections", why is modern history relevant? Both parties


You answered your own question with those two words. These parties, their platforms, personas, etc exist wholly because of the developments of modern history.

Originally Posted by Sini
For example, immigration. Democrats absolutely love malign conservative as racists over this. However, as a critical thinker you must acknowledge that there are non-racist reasons to oppose it. Especially illegal economic immigration. Yet, such acknowledgment is completely absent from any Democratic narrative.


I'm not defending the Democrats, I'm making the case that their talking point here is relevant and worthy of affirmation and response rather than recoil. If I were, though, I'd offer that they don't really need TWO good points to meet the bar of reasonable objection.


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Originally Posted by rhaikh
These parties, their platforms, personas, etc exist wholly because of the developments of modern history.


This raises an important point: how far back, exactly, do you think should be gone? Everything that happens is influenced in some manner by everything that came before. So, how far back do you want to go to demand that the past be accounted for?

If you had a principled stance on this point that was universally applied, then that would go a long way towards achieving validity for your other points that mostly seem to follow from your premise that X was responsible for Y, and needs to do Z because their current situation followed from or benefitted in some manner from Y.

I mean, we could hypothetically go back to the Ottoman years and demand restitution for Muslim invasions of the West. In fact, many fraught areas of the world, specifically in the Balkans, still do. However, I don't think that is an example anyone should be interested in following. Conversely, if someone was doing racist crap yesterday, I would still hold it against them today - even if they uttered contrite words. So, how far back should we go and why?


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I'm following the backbone upon which some "conservative" policy hangs, which starts with Goldwater using euphemisms like "bullies and marauders," Nixon standing with Thurmond, Reagan talking about states rights in Neshoba County, and which eventually traveled down the escalator.


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Originally Posted by rhaikh
I'm following the backbone upon which some "conservative" policy hangs, which starts with Goldwater using euphemisms like "bullies and marauders," Nixon standing with Thurmond, Reagan talking about states rights in Neshoba County, and which eventually traveled down the escalator.


And years after that, Hillary was dog whistling about "super predators" while her husband signed legislation that would begin an era of mass minority incarceration. Yet more years later she was personally representing party in recent election.

Your point?

If you want to say both parties are racist, then sure. Just to be clear, I'm not defending GOP shittyness - I'm simply pointing out selectivity on your part. But it seems to me that to call GOPers blanket racist by your metrics, one would also have to concede that Democrats are also very racist. Any "pass" that the Democrats might have gotten for electing Obama was given up when they pushed Hillary. Quite a few prominent Democrats, including much of their congressional leadership, has family power base rooted in same racist culture you invoke - extending well into the period of time you are talking about.

Last edited by Derid; 05/01/18 10:35 PM.

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Again, I'm not here to defend Democrats, you are dangling yet another thread of Whataboutism that does a disservice to the difference in magnitude to which my arguments apply to the modern Republican agenda.

I will say this, though: The rise of identity politics from the left, which manifests as issues of race being in the limelight this decade, is not simply some spontaneous coincidence. The Democrats do share the blame for helping to put the lid on the pressure cooker of the status quo (seen most clearly in W and Gore having nothing left to debate), which is now explosive.


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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Again, I'm not here to defend Democrats, you are dangling yet another thread of Whataboutism that does a disservice to the difference in magnitude to which my arguments apply to the modern Republican agenda.

I will say this, though: The rise of identity politics from the left, which manifests as issues of race being in the limelight this decade, is not simply some spontaneous coincidence. The Democrats do share the blame for helping to put the lid on the pressure cooker of the status quo (seen most clearly in W and Gore having nothing left to debate), which is now explosive.


No, it's not whataboutism - I'm highlighting lack of objectivity and equal application of principles. This is important, because generally speaking I think Sini is correct in regards to the effects of calling people racists. That is, a net negative effect, and one that numbs people to the issue and gives actual racists a free pass. Maybe you don't see this on a first hand personal basis up in your section of the Pacific Northwest, but here in the Midwest it couldn't be more apparent. This is a real thing, and has a real impact, one I suspect you actually wouldn't be happy about or feel was a good thing if you saw it on a large scale in person, and not through the lens of people you possibly don't much care for, who happen to be chiding your tactics over the internet.

The one thing that would at least validate your stance, would be if it was result of equal application of principle and not arbitrariness borne of political motivation.

As far as magnitude, what has the GOP done that has had greater impact than Clinton era policies? Not to mention, even Obama wasn't great when it came to cracking down on racially charged localities - that shit didn't even get attention until Ferguson, and the response wasn't exactly aggressive. Democrat/liberal strongholds like NYC have even lived by broken window policies, and aggressive racial profiling.

It's not whataboutism to point out that among other things, you are making the same mistakes conservatives made when they ignored birtherism and Obama-is-a-muslim rhetoric. Both by ignoring and silently encouraging your own strain of psychotic wingnuts, and by throwing stones from a glass house. For all the sins of the GOP, the agenda and methods being employed by large swaths of self-identifying liberals and Democrats isn't any better.

Liberals have chance to take high road, and say "we wont made the same mistakes, and be like them" but all signs point towards engaging is the same type of activities. This is unfortunate.


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Originally Posted by Derid
I'm highlighting lack of objectivity and equal application of principles.

The one thing that would at least validate your stance, would be if it was result of equal application of principle and not arbitrariness borne of political motivation.


This is important distinction. If your position is "I am going to hold my nose and vote for these people, because alternative is horrible racists and we can't have THAT", then you have been had. People you are voting for are not any better. This is just another wedge issue, maybe because abortion and guns no longer enough, or maybe because you can never have enough wedge issues.

The same applies to conservatives, only instead of racism you have to substitute deficit spending.


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What party is running on a platform of reforming criminal justice system and end mass incarceration? No party.
What party is running on a platform of good job opportunities for poor and lower middles class? No party.
What party is running on a platform of putting in public transportation infrastructure so inner cities aren't dead zones for everything? No party.
What party is running on a platform of improving education and making post-secondary education affordable? No party.

So no party is actually willing to help minorities in any meaningful way.

As to talk about diversity and intersectionality and all other bullshit, that is just a bunch of out-of-touch academics trying to reinvent Marx's class struggle theory.


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