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#141438 - 08/25/17 08:06 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Washington also owned slaves. That is, if we apply TODAY'S standards to historical figures, we going to be left only with Gandhi statues. Well, not even him, as he had some very sexist views by today's standards.


#141440 - 08/25/17 08:57 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted by Sini
You *assert* that these are monuments to racism and poison the well by insisting that there is no other possible reason these exist but to celebrate racism. Since you have done this twice, and it is core of your argument, I want you to demonstrate that these monuments: a) are there to celebrate characters uniquely racist by standards of their own time and/or b) used today to promote racism and removing them will lead to direct reduction in racism.

Again, we are not talking about tearing down statues of robed grand wizard or statue of a burning cross, we are talking about tearing down statues of historical figures.


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Many of these were erected by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. This is a white supremacist organization, which contemporaneously defended the KKK. The monuments romanticize the era of slavery and glorify those who fought to defend it. Whatever historical value they have is not balanced by the tacit approval of their symbolism through their prominence in public spaces. This contributes to an overall normalization of racist attitudes which directly contributes to racism. Moreover, their removal from public spaces does not equate to erasing history, and nobody is arguing that it should.

Your straw man about Obama misses the point because he did not literally fight in a war to protect his ownership of humans. I guess if he took a lot of money from the Beef lobby, and critically future cows become sentient, and in direct response Big BBQ puts up a giant Obama statue, then maybe you might have a point.

Last edited by rhaikh; 08/25/17 10:33 PM.

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#141443 - 08/26/17 12:17 AM Re: Trump card [Re: rhaikh]  
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Not sure on the number but I would guess around 1 is the amount of countries that fought a war and the losers erected statues of the losing side leaders.

#141444 - 08/26/17 02:06 AM Re: Trump card [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Many of these were erected by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. This is a white supremacist organization, which contemporaneously defended the KKK. The monuments romanticize the era of slavery and glorify those who fought to defend it. Whatever historical value they have is not balanced by the tacit approval of their symbolism through their prominence in public spaces. This contributes to an overall normalization of racist attitudes which directly contributes to racism. Moreover, their removal from public spaces does not equate to erasing history, and nobody is arguing that it should.


Interesting graph. Civil war ended in 1865, but the peak statue construction appears to be 40 years later. I know nothing about the United Daughters of the Confederacy, other than about anyone from South in that era would be considered full blown racist by modern standards. The biggest spike appears to be from 1900 to 1915. What factors would you attribute it to?

Building of statues around civil right movement could be considered suspicious, I'd support removal of any confederate statue put up in that era. Say 1960 and newer should go. But statues erected more than 100 years ago? To me, that is history.

You also make another logical jump in stating "this contributes to an overall normalization of racist attitudes". You reductive view of the civil war leads you to conclude it was racist vs. non-racists, therefore anyone celebrating confederacy must be automatically racist. The reality is much more complex, with racists on both sides.

I lived in Texas for couple years, I have seen Southern Pride firsthand and don't consider it inherently racist. Both racists and non-racist people show it. Many people there genuinely associate with Texas more than with US. For example, they take pride in the Battle of the Alamo and victory over Mexico. Does that make them anti-Mexican racists?




#141445 - 08/26/17 06:13 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Yeah, I dont understand all this whataboutism. We aren't talking about American Generals and the father of our country here. We are talking about statues of literal traitors to this country. They belong in a museums and historical battle sites and no where else.

Last edited by Goriom; 08/26/17 06:19 AM.
#141446 - 08/26/17 06:18 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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#141448 - 08/26/17 08:37 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Many of these were erected by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. This is a white supremacist organization, which contemporaneously defended the KKK. The monuments romanticize the era of slavery and glorify those who fought to defend it. Whatever historical value they have is not balanced by the tacit approval of their symbolism through their prominence in public spaces. This contributes to an overall normalization of racist attitudes which directly contributes to racism. Moreover, their removal from public spaces does not equate to erasing history, and nobody is arguing that it should.


Seems like an odd thing to focus on to be honest. Honestly, to me the whole dealio about statues looks to be coming from people who generally disdain, don't understand, and don't want to understand the people who live in areas and/or are of a contemporary culture that they dislike. Seems to me its more about simply throwing stones at the "other" than it is about any notion of outrage at symbolizing a slavery that ended quite a long time ago. If only all this effort was directed at the Drug War, or a dozen other heavy handed statist policies that actually perpetuated grossly unfair treatment of certain disadvantaged demographics.


Originally Posted by Sini

Interesting graph. Civil war ended in 1865, but the peak statue construction appears to be 40 years later. I know nothing about the United Daughters of the Confederacy, other than about anyone from South in that era would be considered full blown racist by modern standards. The biggest spike appears to be from 1900 to 1915. What factors would you attribute it to?



The war generation was aging and dying off, and their children and grandchildren were revering the Age of their elders, as well as looking back to a time that was romanticized (through very rose colored lenses) as an era where things were good for them. It bears remembering as well that the war and Reconstruction policies that followed it doomed large swaths of the South to endemic poverty and backwardness that continues to this day. Sure, the Old, Pre-war South certainly had its ugliness. But that doesn't change the fact that they were and still mired in poverty, and all the ignorance that comes with it. Unfortunately, many seem to have just decided, then and now, that they are all inherently bad people beyond enlightenment. Which seems to me to be rather similar to the racist views that some hold towards certain minorities - as in the folks who think that some minorities are more likely to become hardened criminals simply because they are of said minority, not because they grew up in a situation of generational poverty and ignorance.

So funny how people tend to become what they purport to hate. Or, it would be funny if it hadn't given us Trump.

Last edited by Derid; 08/26/17 08:39 AM.

For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#141449 - 08/26/17 01:22 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Derid]  
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Originally Posted by Derid
looks to be coming from people who generally disdain, don't understand, and don't want to understand the people who live in areas and/or are of a contemporary culture that they dislike. Seems to me its more about simply throwing stones at the "other" than it is about any notion of outrage at symbolizing a slavery


I fully agree with you.

To add, this will likely push more people to racism, as "these carpetbaggers coming over and trying to erase our identity and out history" will play out all over South. Moderates, who care about southern identity will be pushed into supremacists hands as these are viewed as a response.


#141468 - 08/28/17 07:07 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted by Sini
Interesting graph. Civil war ended in 1865, but the peak statue construction appears to be 40 years later. I know nothing about the United Daughters of the Confederacy, other than about anyone from South in that era would be considered full blown racist by modern standards. The biggest spike appears to be from 1900 to 1915. What factors would you attribute it to?



[Linked Image]



Originally Posted by Sini
Building of statues around civil right movement could be considered suspicious, I'd support removal of any confederate statue put up in that era. Say 1960 and newer should go. But statues erected more than 100 years ago? To me, that is history.


Quit moving the fucking goal post.



Originally Posted by Sini
You also make another logical jump in stating "this contributes to an overall normalization of racist attitudes". You reductive view of the civil war leads you to conclude it was racist vs. non-racists, therefore anyone celebrating confederacy must be automatically racist. The reality is much more complex, with racists on both sides.


The war was complex, these statues are not.

Originally Posted by Derid
Seems like an odd thing to focus on to be honest. Honestly, to me the whole dealio about statues looks to be coming from people who generally disdain, don't understand, and don't want to understand the people who live in areas and/or are of a contemporary culture that they dislike.


GTFO of here with this bullshit. How about some sympathy with people whose entire ancestry is caught up in the slave trade.


Originally Posted by Derid
an era where things were good for them.


Precisely why the war was fought.


Originally Posted by Sini
I fully agree with you.



This, of all things, is the reductionist attitude in this thread.


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#141471 - 08/28/17 08:24 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Derid]  
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Originally Posted by Derid
Unfortunately, many seem to have just decided, then and now, that they are all inherently bad people beyond enlightenment.


To your argument: How do statues of racists and slavers in their communities, schools and courthouses serve to enlighten these people?


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