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Originally Posted by Derid
tldr; Having safety nets and social services does not necessarily preclude nor induce tyranny or other forms of social deterioration, while arbitrarily embracing things as human rights simply because you find them desirable or a utilitarian argument could be made on its behalf, will.

And has.


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An academic discussion, since voters have already rejected the idea.


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Originally Posted by Derid
If you accept that anything you personally feel desirable can arbitrarily be called a right, you open the door for anyone to do the same.


I acknowledge your point in rational terms. However, this discussion should not be framed in rational terms as our self-preservation imperative is not rational. It is often more economical to die, however good luck convincing anyone to act on this.

To frame it in computing terms, before we can start talking about operating system we need to establish working bootloader. The same way society operates, until you satisfy basic needs there couldn't be any talk about building just and egalitarian society. Forget that, there couldn't even be any talk about rational decision making by any individual.

Also note I didn't say unlimited healthcare, rather I framed it in terms of access.


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Originally Posted by Owain
An academic discussion, since voters have already rejected the idea.


What voters and what was exactly rejected? Be more specific.


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Government health care in general is what voters have rejected. Trump in particular and Republicans in general ran against Obamacare, and for the last eight years voters have been putting Democrats out of office in historic numbers nation wide.

If voters had wanted to retain government health care, they would have elected Hillary Clinton, not Donald Trump.


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Originally Posted by Sini
Also note I didn't say unlimited healthcare, rather I framed it in terms of access.

Can you define the limits of "access"?

In my conversations, I find that many people do not know that it is now, and has been since 1986, the law that no hospital can turn away a patient based on their citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay. How much access should we provide in order to establish the footing for egalitarianism?


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If you want a big reason why health care costs have gotten excessive, you've identified a big cost driver. Read that description again. How could that not serve to drive costs up?


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Originally Posted by Kaotic
Originally Posted by Sini
Also note I didn't say unlimited healthcare, rather I framed it in terms of access.

Can you define the limits of "access"?

In my conversations, I find that many people do not know that it is now, and has been since 1986, the law that no hospital can turn away a patient based on their citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay. How much access should we provide in order to establish the footing for egalitarianism?


I think the difference is that Sini's viewpoint advocates "Access to healthcare that is not proceeded by crippling debt" while the law prohibiting hospitals from turning away patients simply affords "Access to healthcare" which may or may not be followed by said crippling debt. Either of you please correct me if I'm wrong.

Last edited by Brutal; 07/07/17 08:57 AM.
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Originally Posted by Brutal
I think the difference is that Sini's viewpoint advocates "Access to healthcare that is not proceeded by crippling debt" while the law prohibiting hospitals from turning away patients simply affords "Access to healthcare" which may or may not be followed by said crippling debt. Either of you please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't want anyone stricken with crippling debt. I do want everyone to be able to have exceptional health care. I don't think anyone here would disagree with either of those statements. I think we disagree over how to provide the care without the debt.


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Originally Posted by Kaotic
Originally Posted by Sini
Also note I didn't say unlimited healthcare, rather I framed it in terms of access.

Can you define the limits of "access"?


Typically, countries where universal health care is practiced use some variation of "healthy years per $" metric. Similar approach should be used here. For example, I don't want to see multi-million dollar end-of-life treatments for seniors, but kidney transplant for a young adult might be reasonable ask. Personally, I want to see two-tier system - basic medicare-like system for everyone, then premium insurance or fee based medicine for people willing to pay.

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In my conversations, I find that many people do not know that it is now, and has been since 1986, the law that no hospital can turn away a patient based on their citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay.


This is only for life-threatening conditions, only insofar as stabilizing the patient, and there is no "not going to bankrupt you" rider attached to this.

For example, if you are $40K/year construction "contractor" and happen to get seriously sick, you are all but guaranteed to get bankrupted. Your income stops, your medical bills pile up... I don't think this is acceptable outcome in a country as prosperous as USA.


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