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#139284 - 12/15/16 06:23 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Owain Offline
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The fact that Johnson had zero probability of winning was reason to not vote Johnson.


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#139285 - 12/15/16 09:51 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Owain]  
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Originally Posted By: Owain
The fact that Johnson had zero probability of winning was reason to not vote Johnson.


I've never understood that line of thought. If you are a Russian should you then feel obligated to vote for Putin, because he is going to win? For Kim Jong if you are a North Korean?

Is it some hope that one time you will vote, and the race will come down to one vote - thus giving you that lotto-winning feeling that you single-handedly altered the course of history?

If someone actually supports Hillary Trumpkin, that's one thing. But if you don't, but vote for them anyway because "they are going to win" then I honestly find that extremely sad.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#139286 - 12/15/16 10:17 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Wolfgang]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfgang
sold Russia 20% of our Uranium and took Millions from Russians into their Foundation. Then their husband got a huge payday for a speech from a Bank that is directly tied to the Kremlin... who was that again I forgot


More unproven fake news bullshit

http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/Dont just discount it because it is snopes. Read the referenced materials.


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#139287 - 12/16/16 12:29 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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There was more than one candidate running, so your Putin analogy makes no sense.

Realistically, only one of two candidates had a possiblility of winning. Voting for a third party candidate is useless. The only impact they have is acting as spoilers by sucking votes away from a candidate who actually can win.

No candidate is perfect, so one should always vote for the candidate that either provides the best match for their interests, or is least damaging, otherwise, they risk winding up with the candidate they like least.

Why would you want that?

Last edited by Owain; 12/16/16 05:39 AM.

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#139289 - 12/16/16 06:03 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Let's take an example. Let's say you are undecided between Hillary and Jill Stein, but you despise Trump. It's a close call, but you decide to cast your vote for Stein.

In Michigan, Trump beat Hillary by 279000 votes to 268000 votes, a margin of 11,000 votes. Jill Stein got only 50,000 votes, so she never stood a chance of winning Michigan, but arguably caused Clinton to lose the state.

So if you lived in Michigan, by voting for a candidate with zero chance of winning, you wind up with the candidate you despise rather than a candidate that actually had a chance of winning that you would have liked better.

That demonstrates the folly of voting for third party candidates. Vote for the candidate you like best who actually has a chance of winning, or the candidate you dislike least. Otherwise, you might end up with the candidate who was your LAST choice winning the election.


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#139290 - 12/16/16 08:15 AM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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People run against Putin as well, he just defeats them all.

The bottom line, if you vote for someone that means you find them acceptable and fit. Voting is ultimately an affirmative action.

Voting for someone who wont "win" has great merit when none of the "leading" contenders will result in any net benefit.

The problem with your "lesser of two evils" approach:

You are probably familiar with Darwin's various theories. Heres the thing - selection happens on a societal level, not just a biological one. If you affirm garbage politicians, you are affirming a garbage society. When the "lesser of two evils" is still evil, meaning, in this case, a net negative societal impact, then affirming such with a vote is nothing less than actively contributing to the devolution of human society. All you are doing, is ushering in the day where history turns against us, and we fail to "make the cut"


In theory, humans have agency. This makes the actual political dynamic akin to a market dynamic, where, bluntly put, people can select sub-optimal product. We see that all the time, in markets as well as politics. However, they can also choose to send a signal that the current offerings aren't good enough. This is to entice a better offering. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. But at least it beats continuing affirmation of one's support for getting ripped off.

Not only that, but more importantly, it is at least making some effort to align our social construct with the very real Darwinistic demands that do, and will always continue to exist. By this I don't mean a human extinction-level event (although theoretically possible,) but rather the simple fact that institutions, governments, nations, and cultures can die or disappear.

Supporting an aspect of Hillary Trumpkin is just choosing which type of poison to take.

Both major parties have, for quite some time, been in a race to the bottom. They constantly push the bounds of how much garbage they can get away with feeding us, and for some reason the vast majority of us keep choking the shit down, forcing a smile, and asking for another serving.

Your Stein example, while technically correct in terms of mechanics, fails to address the real problem. In fact, that entire mode of thinking is the problem.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#139294 - 12/16/16 03:11 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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Let's suppose that as in Michigan, you get 100% of what you want Jill Stein as a candidate, 70% with Hillary Clinton, but only 10% (or less) with Donald Trump.

Even though Stein is the perfect candidate for you, if she cannot win, voting for her is useless. You are better off getting 70% of the policies you want with Hillary than you are with only 10% or less with Trump.

In warfare, there is a principle known as Divide and Conquer. Liberals allowed themselves to be divided, so they were conquered.

Let's say you have a football team that can win the Superbowl. If you take 11 men on the field, you are unbeatable. Why would you insist on playing two different games, one with 8 players and one with 3 players, guaranteeing defeat?

Seeking your ideal candidate is ok only to the extent that your goal is achievable. If trying for perfection guarantees failure and defeat, you are better off accepting less that perfection.

Last edited by Owain; 12/16/16 03:13 PM.

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#139296 - 12/16/16 04:28 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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This video is totally worth watching.

Last edited by Goriom; 12/16/16 04:33 PM.
#139297 - 12/16/16 05:00 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Sini]  
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It's a good thing, then that we in the United States live in a representative democracy under a federal system, and not under a democracy.

As long as that is the case, and as long as Democrats are unwilling to accept the reality of the system under which we live, their electoral collapse will continue indefinitely.

Trump wasn't my first choice (Ted Cruz was), but I will see a majority of the policies I want implemented under a Trump administration rather than none of my preferred policies were I to have taken a #NeverTrump stance.

Majorities are of critical importance in American politics. If you fail to recognize that fact, you will forever fail due to the inevitable consequences of a divide and conquer approach. Minorities enact few policies. The policies we live under come from the party that is in the majority.

If you are OK with the policies enacted by the majority party, terrific. If not, you need to change your strategy, for otherwise you will consistently be defeated.

Last edited by Owain; 12/16/16 05:01 PM.

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#139298 - 12/16/16 05:10 PM Re: Trump card [Re: Owain]  
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Originally Posted By: Owain



Trump wasn't my first choice (Ted Cruz was), but I will see a majority of the policies I want implemented under a Trump administration rather than none of my preferred policies were I to have taken a #NeverTrump stance.



Are you sure about that lol?

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