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#123684 - 03/05/14 05:12 AM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Sini]  
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I agree that Russia needs to get back home before this turns into another long winded Chechen style war though.

Putin has made his point already with a very minimal military presence. Russian support will fade if they see the guerrilla warfare machine start revving up even more than it already is over there.

#123687 - 03/05/14 06:05 PM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Sethan]  
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Ukrainian protests were mostly about Yanukovich trying to move Ukraine closer to Russian non-democratic "democracy" governance model. Sure, it was triggered by EU, but that wasn't what it was about.

This was Round2 of Orange Revolution, where Ukrainian people refused to go along with degradation of their democratic rights.

For Putin, the reverse was true. He couldn't leave Ukraine alone or he would risk democratic protests imported into Russia. He already had to deal with some during earlier elections.

This in my book deserves admiration and our support.


#123689 - 03/05/14 08:14 PM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Sini]  
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Lots of asshattery on both sides. Fundamentally, its probably better for people in Ukraine - majority of them anyhow, to align with Europe.

But even that comes with problems, such as basically selling the country to the IMF. Putin is fighting against the IMF and international banking cartels as much as anything, and also of course having cultivated a nationalist sentiment at home comes under significant internal pressure to act where "Russian Nationals" are involved.

I think a lot of the Orange people in Ukraine have good intentions and high aspirations. Vitali Klitschko in particular is a very respectable person.

Unfortunately the people in Ukraine are caught between the corporatist banking cartel/IMF vultures on one side, and corrupt expressions of Russian nationalism on the other. Pick your poison. The IMF probably a more palatable poison, since they will just impoverish the country where the Russians were going to impoverish the country and enforce a bunch of absurd laws.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#125059 - 05/21/14 05:41 PM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Sini]  
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For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#125061 - 05/21/14 06:43 PM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Derid]  
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Quote:
The radical nationalists of western Ukraine, for whom the rejection of Russia and its culture is an article of faith, intend to force the rest of the country to fit their narrow vision.


Radical nationalists may also intend to cure cancer too, but have near zero ability to do ether.

Quote:
Ukrainian conflict is not the conflict between the “pro-Russian separatists” and “pro-Ukrainians,” but rather between two Ukrainian groups who do not share each other’s vision of an independent Ukraine.


This is false in many ways. Russian-speaking East Ukrainians are not a uniform "pro-Russian" group, many have no interest in joining less liberal Russia as a distant province.

Otherwise, yes, this is just like US "conflict" between liberals and conservatives. Two camps with slightly different ideologies that fight at the polls.

Armed violence, on other hand, was 100% Russian import. Prior to Crimea Ukraine managed to have ZERO violence of this kind (aside from occasional fist fight in their congress) with the political sides largely unchanged. Ukraine also went through similar Orange Revolution without it degrading into armed violence.

The last time anything like this happened was post WW2 when Russia re-established control over its territory, plus a great deal of victor's spoils, and Ukraine's short-lived independence was violently repressed. Big chunk of present day Ukraine was not under control of USSR before WW2.

Quote:
For better or for worse, Putin has put an end to oligarch rule in Russia.


AHAHAHAHA! Good one. No, wait, this guy is serious.

Overall - Vladimir Golstein is nothing but Kremlin apologist.




#125062 - 05/21/14 10:02 PM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Sini]  
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Interesting to get different views on the story, but I agree some of the statements seemed a bit odd.

Its like 2 sides shouting "my oligarch is better than your oligarch" at each other.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#125063 - 05/21/14 10:47 PM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: Sini
Quote:
For better or for worse, Putin has put an end to oligarch rule in Russia.


AHAHAHAHA! Good one. No, wait, this guy is serious.

Perhaps he's suggesting that Putin is replacing oligarchy with dictatorship...


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#125069 - 05/22/14 12:56 PM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Kaotic]  
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Why do you think Putin is backpedaling on Ukraine right now? He was set to annex East Ukraine, and now he withdraw his special ops and letting it stabilize. Why? Because sanctions + markets cost Oligarchs a very large fortune, with more threatened if he goes through with the plan.


He is not as in control as he thought going in. If he costs too much money he will be replaced by the next apparatchik. He clearly wants to go in, has physical means to do so, domestic propaganda to justify it, and West unwillingness to go into shooting war over Ukraine.

The odd one out is money. Money talks bullshit walks. Oligarchs are still in charge.


#125679 - 07/18/14 12:31 AM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Sini]  
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Russian-export "Ukrainian" separatists shoot down civilian plane using advanced Russian military hardware.

This is going to turn much uglier for Russia since US/Germany just got a green light to get involved in this.



#125712 - 07/22/14 01:24 PM Re: Russian invasion of Ukraine and World War 3 [Re: Sini]  
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Why do I have the feeling that this will be forgotten in a few months and nothing more than political jabs will come from it?

Israel did however seize that window of media distraction to move into Gaza.

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