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Derid #113418 01/28/13 09:04 AM
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Is Democracy hate really a thing on the right now? I'm having trouble believing that I need to defend the constitution to constitution defenders, or extol the virtues of political liberty to Libertarians.

Originally Posted By: Derid

mob rule


This was a nice topic of conversation when our founding fathers were creating a new government. Today, we have dozens of stable democracies far removed from mob rule. This thread in particular was created because of an act of political violence against a mob. That is the very definition of not being mob rule. Also, let us not pretend that facist/dictators(whatever) don't use public sentiment/propaganda just as much, if not more, than modern democracies.

Originally Posted By: Derid

Honestly, if you believe this you should take a closer look at our foreign policy.


I'm well aware of our grand history of supporting banana republics against popular revolutions. This has changed recently; most noticeably with George W. The US now supports messy democracy over stable dictatorships. If you truly believe that all men are created equal and have the right to self governence, than this is the only proper conclusion.

Spot on about the last point.

Kaotic #113443 01/29/13 12:13 AM
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Turkey, its the difference between a Democracy and a Republic - where a "Democracy" as such is rule grounded in "will of majority" and a Constitutional Republic is grounded in Natural Rights and while the govt generally reflects the will of the populace is still restrained from infringing on, and charged with protecting said rights.

In a "Democracy" as such the only rights you have are the rights that are "most popular" on a given day. A Constitutional Republic is a different story.

There is a popular phrase (often attributed to Franklin, but not provably AFAIK):

A Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

A Constitutional Republic is when a well armed sheep contests the vote.

It basically boils down to this: do you have rights as a human, irrespective of their current popularity? Of course as a practical matter, there are methods to change a Constitution via super-majorities.

My point is simply that the high threshold involved in changing Govt's relationship with your rights is quite intentional.

----------

As far as "Dozens of Stable Democracies removed from mob rule" I would say a couple things:

First, that stability is not necessarily the best metric.

Second, whether they are removed from mob rule is also quite open to debate.

Really, there is a huge discussion that could be had here.

---------

As for our current involvement with tyrants vs populace... it has not changed as much as you seem to think. Go google up Bahrain for example. Or the countries in Pipelinistan we have relations with. In some cases we have good reasons, in others... I would personally say much less so.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Derid #113447 01/29/13 07:13 AM
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I don't know if we're debating semantics or if the hate for the democratic party is such that we can no longer admit the US is a democracy.

Originally Posted By: Derid
Constitutional Republic


A republic, constitutional or otherwise, without the democratic part (democratic republic or representative democracy), is a country ran by an unelected legislature. China is a constitutional republic. The bananna republics I mentioned were ran by wealthy landowners where the citizens had zero say in their government. The idea of a republic started in Rome where the Senate were appointed by status (a combination of wealth, heredity and accomplishments). This notoriously caused a lot of problems because they were completely oblivious to the needs of the citizens of a growing empire. The House of Lords in Britian, unelected representitives, is exactly why we had a revolution in the first place.

A true democracry, which keeps being brought up without definition, is a country that doesn't have a legislature. All laws, treaties, and administrative appointments are drafted and ratified by the public. This has never been in consideration because the logistics for anything larger than a city-state is bat-shit crazy.

This isn't a philosophical debate of the interests of the masses vs. the interests of the individual. This is concrete bureaucratic organization.

Originally Posted By: Derid
stability is not necessarily the best metric

Then what is? GDP, happiness, freedom? These countries work, and they work well.

Originally Posted By: Derid
mob rule

I would firmly argue that the West Europe, East Asia, South America, Oceanic democracies are far removed from mob rule.

Originally Posted By: Derid
Bahrain

Is a great example. Previously, the US would rush in defense of the monarchy. The US was very careful not to support them this time around.

Originally Posted By: Derid
Pipelinistan

I'm not naive enough to suggest we don't have shady dealings with shady governments, especially in indo-asia. Just, that in the case of a democratic revolution, the US now either supports the revolution either through action (Egypt) or inaction (Bahrain). To brush off this apparrant policy change as merely lip-service goes against both recent events and our conviction that citizens should have a say in their governence.

Kaotic #113453 01/29/13 09:45 AM
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I would not say semantics, but rather an important concept that many people intentionally misuse in the public sphere - and by extension many people unintentionally misuse.

The differentiation between your ability to maintain freedom of speech - or any other right - if 50.1% of voters decide it is an unneeded freedom and govt can infringe it VS 75% of voters combined with 75% of regional legislatures is quite an important differentiation.

The talking heads like to talk a lot about "the will of the people". Great lengths are gone to to try and establish in the public mind that

1) The "majority" feel X should be done
2) That the fact that a "majority" wills it, means it is just

Partisan politics have nothing to do with this, the GOP under Bush was every bit as guilty as the Dems under Obama.

-----------------

I would dispute that many of those countries work "well" , and liberty would certainly be the metric I would use. Its a complex issue though ill-suited to either one of us trying to break down into one liners.

I think you will find plenty of examples of mob rule in the areas you mentioned. Plenty of cases where the govt does whatever it wants, especially if you are a minority. That minority can mean different things , depending on the actual instance you are referring to - political, ethnic, geographic.

------

Bahrains revolts were forcibly suppressed by the Saudis using our weapons, with our satellite photos and intel. Heck, the Sauds themselves are a case study. In Libya we sent planes and drones. In Bahrain our regional enforcer marched in to support the regime. Now, seeing as we have military facilities present I can see why we would act the way we did. But it does not change the fact that our espoused principles and our actions do not match.

-----------

I think a case could be made that US behavior has changed to a degree. Though I think an equally strong case could be made that we have a long ways to go.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Derid #113455 01/29/13 11:07 AM
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I think I get where you're coming from. We're confusing Democracy, a form of elected government, to democracy, short hand for majority rule.

I would suggests that Democracy =/= democracy. Having a Democracy does not preclude special voting requirements as we can see in our amendment voting requirements. Another example is run-off voting preformed in some countries. Further, as many constitutions are cribbed from ours, I'd speculate that special voting requirements are a somewhat common thing.

No Democracy that I know of solely relies on democracy. But just as we shouldn't automatically accept majority opinion, nor should we discard it.

If we accept liberty as a metric, we can only conclude that western Democracies are far more free than the alternatives. I do agree, however, that this subject is outside the scope of the forums.

The Saudi's aren't our regional enforcer; we're their's. The Saudi's have had us by our curlies for longer than my lifetime. The fact that the US made no overt support for the Bahrainian Monarchy, despite the Saudi's very special interest for us to do so, speaks volumes to me.

Originally Posted By: Derid
I think a case could be made that US behavior has changed to a degree. Though I think an equally strong case could be made that we have a long ways to go.


That's fair, as long as we can agree that supporting Democracy, not necessarily democracy, is a good thing.

TurkeyJ #113472 01/29/13 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: TurkeyJ
For better or worse, the US supports democracy. I do too.


I do too. Sometimes it means bad guys win the elections.

As to blaming Brotherhood on Obama - foil


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Kaotic #113505 01/30/13 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Originally Posted By: JetStar
I didnt realize that the US president decided who the Egyptian president was. Thanks for the info.
He shouldn't but he sure spent an awful lot of time telling us how great a regime change would be, and money making it happen, then telling how it would stabilize the middle east. And we were all called "crazy" for saying that the Muslim Brotherhood are religious zealot wackos. Who was right and who was crazy?


I don't see any evidence of anyone in the Obama talking up the Muslim Brotherhood. What they did do was support the democratic process. Just like with Iraq, you cant take it back just because you don't like the choice the people made. That is the danger of democracy.


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Daye #113506 01/30/13 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: Daye
Sarcasm will get you nowhere. Especially against other masters of Sarcasm :D


But Daye, my sarcasm skills are surging!


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Kaotic #113510 01/30/13 01:42 PM
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Chuckle.

Alas, it's not a skill that's very useful in today's society :D
Though, useful in limited circumstances.

Daye #113523 01/30/13 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: Daye
Chuckle.

Alas, it's not a skill that's very useful in today's society :D
Though, useful in limited circumstances.


Ask my wife. My sarcasm is how she gets out of having to sleep with me.


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