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#103185 - 08/14/12 04:35 PM Re: Romney [Re: Kaotic]  
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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Originally Posted By: sinij
My own ideology is that individual success is only possible due to access to all benefits society provided to said individual. Once individual becomes successful such individual should honor social contract and put best interest of society ahead of his or her own interest.
I feel sorry for you, that you don't have enough sense of self worth to know that you can succeed on your own without help from anyone else. I wish that you could have had the childhood that I did, where I learned that there are literally no limits to what you can do in this country, as long as you're willing to work for it. That ability to succeed has nothing to do with a "social contract" and everything to do with our founders' recognition of our rights as human beings and the incorporation of those rights as the foundation of our country.


If you are so sure you could succeed on your own, would you move to Somalia and try it there? Why not?


#103187 - 08/14/12 08:52 PM Re: Romney [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
"God given right" that you mention and Constitution are both social contracts, or do you think fear of getting smitten or getting damned to hell is what keeps people from raping and pillaging?
By strict definition of the words that can be said to be true about our constitution (except that's not what liberals mean by the phrase "social contract") but not about our rights. Our constitution is a recognition of the natural rights of man. Rights that all men are born with, not "rights" that are assigned by the government. Once you believe as you do, that rights come from the government, then there is nothing stopping them from taking them away.

What keeps people from raping and pillaging is many-fold, but some of the basics are:
I don't kill others because I don't want to be killed in retribution.
I don't kill others because I value the sanctity of human life.
I don't kill others because I respect and cherish their rights as much as I respect and cherish my own.
I don't kill others because I it violates my moral code.

Originally Posted By: sinij
If you are so sure you could succeed on your own, would you move to Somalia and try it there? Why not?

I have no desire to move to Somalia because the Somali government doesn't recognize and protect the rights of its people as our constitution does. However, while it would be incredibly difficult, I am confident that I would thrive or find a way to change my circumstances, up to and including leaving if necessary. Which, I believe you mentioned, is how you got here. I'm confident in that belief because I believe in the indomitable will of humanity, and its irrepressible desire for freedom. I do not believe that the government must take care of me or anyone else. That's MY job!


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#103188 - 08/14/12 08:58 PM Re: Romney [Re: Sini]  
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So Sinij, are you willing to admit that you made a baseless claim to demonize millions of people just couse you do not agree with them?

#103199 - 08/15/12 01:58 AM Re: Romney [Re: RedKGB]  
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Originally Posted By: RedKGB
So Sinij, are you willing to admit that you made a baseless claim to demonize millions of people just couse you do not agree with them?


I have read about TP asking GOP to not focus on social issues. Interesting. I will change my mind about TP/GOP when they stop pandering to no abortions/no gay marriage crowd and actually condemn bigots/sexists.

Examples:

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statem...-pride-events-/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/us/politics/13tea.html?_r=1

Quote:
Republicans at the Conservative Political Action Conference last month, while celebrating the Tea Party for energizing their movement, spent much of their time talking about banning gay marriage and overturning Roe v. Wade. “God’s in charge,” Gov. Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota told a cheering crowd.

The inaugural Tea Party convention, organized by the social networking site Tea Party Nation, featured remarks by fervent opponents of gay marriage and abortion rights, including the Baptist pastor Rick Scarborough And some leaders criticized Sarah Palin — normally a Tea Party favorite — for advocating “divine intervention” to help the country.


http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-nation-gay-rights-will-doom-america

Quote:
Despite the common refrain that the Tea Party doesn’t care about social issues like gay rights, today the Tea Party Nation emailed its members a post by right-wing activist Alan Caruba on the dangers of marriage equality and anti-bullying programs. Caruba, who once called marriage equality “an act of societal suicide,” discussed how Tea Party activists need to stop “the queering of America.”



So red, are they all wrong and you are right?


#103200 - 08/15/12 02:16 AM Re: Romney [Re: Sini]  
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Random though, why is TP and GOP always harp on social welfare but never mention corporate welfare? Like corn ethanol of even 70+ bil spent on Big Oil?


#103201 - 08/15/12 04:44 AM Re: Romney [Re: Sini]  
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The politifact article is about some pre-TP event regarding some mayoral candidate in FL. I dont see how it is relevant to the discussion.

The NYtimes article does not seem to support your position, I am not sure why you posted it. Article talks about all the various types of right leaning groups, and how some "claim" the TP mantle.

The rightwing watch is just a report of a post on TPN- the Judson Philips site. Judson is a guy who made a website... and... people can post things on it. When they post an original topic, it gets emailed to all the members. I signed up at one point... email got spammed with like 5-10 posts a day.

So, someone posted something on a random TP site and due to the mechanic of the site the post got emailed out to people on the site mailing list. People also can post on the topic and if you know anything about TPN, you know that there are all sorts of huge debates about all sorts of things.

Interestingly enough, Judson was a big Newt supporter.. Newt is nothing at all like a TP guy. Lots of TPers dont even consider TPN to be a real TP site, though it claims the name. It is a general grass roots conservative site.

Talk about bad examples.

Also, the TP I am familiar with does talk quite a lot about corporate welfare. The GOP/conservative sites dont so much, but thats actually one good way to tell if a TP group is a real TP group or a GOP front with Tea Party in the name.

----------


Heres an idea.

http://www.teapartynation.com/forum/topi...steel-trap-mind

This is a pro-Ryan post on TPN. Now, go read some of the community replies. See what they talk about. Learn a little bit about even a single, even GOP/oriented Tea Party group.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#103206 - 08/15/12 06:42 AM Re: Romney [Re: Derid]  
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Originally Posted By: Derid
Also, the TP I am familiar with does talk quite a lot about corporate welfare. The GOP/conservative sites dont so much, but thats actually one good way to tell if a TP group is a real TP group or a GOP front with Tea Party in the name.

^This.

You don't see this reported on the news or on the left leaning sites because they have an agenda, and honest reporting of the facts would be counter productive for them.


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#103208 - 08/15/12 11:11 AM Re: Romney [Re: Sini]  
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http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/arti...olicy-victories

Interesting Tea Party article. Though not the point of the article, it is quite apparent that there are many many different Tea Parties - even national ones, let alone local - and regional Tea Parties , and they all work on various things that are important to them locally. Often times without even using a Tea Party name.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#103209 - 08/15/12 11:38 AM Re: Romney [Re: Sini]  
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Also, Kaotic I forget exactly which site I was on looking at Ryans voting record. This that pissed me off on it were voting for PAtriot Act, voting for TARP, voting for Bush Medicare expansion.. and a few other things.

Sinij, I think you misunderstand Ayn Rand and your analysis of Objectivism is way off the mark. Objectivism doesnt believe in no-govt.. it espouses the concept of the rights of individuals and the concept that govt is only good when it protects individuals as opposed to promoting collectivist idealism with physical force. You ought to read Atlas Shrugged sometime for yourself, instead of relying on leftist sites to tell you what Objectivism is about.


Also.... Somalia reference again? /facepalm

Because having a simplified and transparent Federal Govt that focused on having a strong military, a high level of actual electoral accountability due to the "weeds" being sorted out locally, courts and basic infrastructure would result in various ethnic warlords setting up tribal kingdoms. Uh huh. Sure. /doublefacepalm


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#103210 - 08/15/12 12:02 PM Re: Romney [Re: Sini]  
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Sinji, others responded before I have and are right, you can call yourself a Tea Party Group with out being a Tea Party Group.

Also I think the problem people have is that it is a group with no national identy. You can think progressives, and the mind is filled with past and current leaders, and a charter of thier stance on everything. You can think GOP and get the same picture.
The reason it is hard todo this with the Tea Party is the fact it is a massive grass roots. The Occupy Wallstreet Movement to me is much the same. It is a new movement, it is grassroots, it have no hardcore set doctrine.

That being said, there will allways be those groups that will push social issues under the umberal of a larger movement. I have stated this before several times, and I will keep stating it. Your stance to label and demonize people is a driving force that is used by not only those on the left but on the right that wish to divide us to conquer us.

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