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Kaotic #103151 08/13/12 06:27 PM
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@Kaotic

Ryan was/is co-sponsor for rounds of Bush tax cuts ("Economic Growth and Tax Relief Act of 2001" and "Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003") and "Death Tax Elimination Act of 2001". Those alone are "big deals".


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Sini #103152 08/13/12 06:31 PM
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You do realize that about 40% of the country identify themselves as conservative, 30% moderate, and only 20% liberal, right?


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Kaotic #103155 08/13/12 07:32 PM
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Sini #103156 08/13/12 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Red, despite your insistence that Tea Party and GOP are not socially conservative, sadly this is not the case. Both GOP and TP are far, far right of the country on these issues and the fact that Bachmann or Sanatorium could be taken serious are ticking bombs. They only reason that GOP still exists today is because young people are not very involved in politics.

Yes I used Glee as an example of what modern standard on social issues is.


I did not say that there were no elements that had addentoanl agendes. I infact included that that there are groups with in the Tea Party that do. I said that one core fiber that brings us togather is fiscal conservative. I also liken it that not every liberal is brain dead. Did you gloss over it and are you now trolling?

Your asking me to speak for millions of people that have different opinons on different matters. The Tea Party is a big tent, all are welcome, and a vast majority do shy away from or exclude the social issues. And I will say it one more time, that there are those in it that do make social issues there all or nothing apporach to voteing, but not every one.

You seem intent on labeling, why do you do this? Can we not still be on the same side while have differing views? You seem to want to ripe people apart couse of differnces instead of trying to find things that do bind us togather, and we can work and agree on. The only war in poltics are those that seek to divide us to conquer us.

Cant we all get along?

Sini #103167 08/14/12 12:12 AM
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Where in Texas were you living Sinij?


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Sini #103172 08/14/12 06:11 AM
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Lets talk about Ayn Rand. Since Paul Ryan is self-admitted Rand disciple and his Ryan's plan is very much along the lines of objectivism.

Ayn Rand... I share quite a bit in common with her - I too escaped communism while young, I also like her came to US and became successful. I very much agree with her on matters of religion and religious morality. I also like her no-nonsense approach to feminism, where she acknowledges difference in sexes while rejecting inequality.

Where I don't agree with her is her Objectivism philosophy, that I see as a reactionary to communism. Instead of understanding differences and nuances she blindly formulated Anti-Communism doctrine by forming point-by-point opposition to it. Her ideology makes as little sense as communism.

Ayn Rand rejection of altruism, her insistence on individualism ignores the very fabric of society that allows us to exist. Gordon Gekko channeled her ideology in his famous "Greed Is Good" speech.

Allow me to disagree. Ayn Rand blind faith in "rational" self-interest ignores the very obvious fact that self-interest is not, and cannot be rational without society, social contract and laws. Why create when you can take away?


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Sini #103173 08/14/12 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Allow me to disagree. Ayn Rand blind faith in "rational" self-interest ignores the very obvious fact that self-interest is not, and cannot be rational without society, social contract and laws. Why create when you can take away?

Please assume we're all too stupid to see what is obvious to you, and explain it to us.


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Kaotic #103178 08/14/12 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Originally Posted By: sinij
Allow me to disagree. Ayn Rand blind faith in "rational" self-interest ignores the very obvious fact that self-interest is not, and cannot be rational without society, social contract and laws. Why create when you can take away?

Please explain it.


Objectivism (Ayn Rand political philosophy) at its core is based on notion of rational egosim. Ayn holds that it is irrational to act against one's self-interest and that combination of individuals acting in self-interest would produce desirable outcome.

Here is an example to demonstrate why such thinking is flawed: For example there is a general vote to set tax rate to 0%. As a well-off individual guided only by self-interest you'd always vote for this. Direct consequence of such tax rate is that there would be no money for infrastructure and society would collapse into anarchy.

Adherence to Ayn Rand ideology leads to conclusion that successful individuals acting in self-interest should renege on Social Contract, because they least benefit from it.

Objectivism ignore the notion of Social Contract; the notion that unlimited natural freedom and self-interest includes freedom to screw others, effectively creating "war of all people against all people". To avoid this society is created, and we as individuals give up some of our natural freedoms (for example freedom to rape and murder each other) in order to establish civil society (where we don't have to worry about getting raped and murdered). Civil Society and Social Contract are not costless, it takes common effort to maintain it and its integrity starts to break down when individual members feel they do not adequately benefit from it (see Somalia).

My own ideology is that individual success is only possible due to access to all benefits society provided to said individual. Once individual becomes successful such individual should honor social contract and put best interest of society ahead of his or her own interest.


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Sini #103182 08/14/12 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Here is an example to demonstrate why such thinking is flawed: For example there is a general vote to set tax rate to 0%. As a well-off individual guided only by self-interest you'd always vote for this. Direct consequence of such tax rate is that there would be no money for infrastructure and society would collapse into anarchy.
We survived until 1913 without an income tax, and only levied occasional taxes to raise funds for things like the civil war.

Originally Posted By: sinij
Adherence to Ayn Rand ideology leads to conclusion that successful individuals acting in self-interest should renege on Social Contract, because they least benefit from it.

Objectivism ignore the notion of Social Contract; the notion that unlimited natural freedom and self-interest includes freedom to screw others, effectively creating "war of all people against all people". To avoid this society is created, and we as individuals give up some of our natural freedoms (for example freedom to rape and murder each other) in order to establish civil society (where we don't have to worry about getting raped and murdered). Civil Society and Social Contract are not costless, it takes common effort to maintain it and its integrity starts to break down when individual members feel they do not adequately benefit from it (see Somalia).
This line of thinking lies outside of the foundation of our constitution which expressly states that man has the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your right to liberty precludes someone else's desire to rape you (to use your example). You see, you don't have the "freedom to screw others" without suffering the ramifications of your actions. There is no "social contract" here, there is simply the recognition of each individual's God given rights. The concept of "adequate benefit" from society is a point of fundamental disagreement between you and me. Our society doesn't owe anyone any benefit. The promise of America is that you will be allowed the freedom to pursue your idea of happiness as long as that doesn't impinge on anyone else's rights. This covers everything.

Originally Posted By: sinij
My own ideology is that individual success is only possible due to access to all benefits society provided to said individual. Once individual becomes successful such individual should honor social contract and put best interest of society ahead of his or her own interest.
I feel sorry for you, that you don't have enough sense of self worth to know that you can succeed on your own without help from anyone else. I wish that you could have had the childhood that I did, where I learned that there are literally no limits to what you can do in this country, as long as you're willing to work for it. That ability to succeed has nothing to do with a "social contract" and everything to do with our founders' recognition of our rights as human beings and the incorporation of those rights as the foundation of our country.


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Kaotic #103184 08/14/12 09:31 AM
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I am afraid I didn't do good job explaining concepts in a way you could understand.

"God given right" that you mention and Constitution are both social contracts, or do you think fear of getting smitten or getting damned to hell is what keeps people from raping and pillaging?


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