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#100238 - 04/27/12 04:21 AM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Kaotic]  
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Life expectancy is not a good indicator of the health system past a certain point. Or at least of the quality of treatment. Just looking at smoking alone, dietary considerations aside - the US has like 2% more of the population smoking than Sweden. Considering smokers live considerably less long on average, 2% more smokers probably in of itself accounts for several months of the average life expectancy differential. There is also plenty of evidence that child mortality is not tied to the medical system as such, environmental factors, cultural factors, etc play into it. You cannot make a 1:1 comparison between quality of health care and these metrics you mention.

To get a picture of the actual quality, you have to look at data for life expectancy in the face of difficult, yet still treatable disease. Rates of longevity and survival for Heart Surgery, Cancers, trauma injury, etc. As well as effectiveness and comfort of treatments like joint replacements and therapy for the chronic diseases you mention. Speaking of chronic diseases, many of those are also not correlated with medical quality, at least their contraction.

http://newswithnumbers.com/2009/10/28/cancer-survival-revisited/

There is some data on cancel survival rates, as you can see - Socialist countries lag far behind the USA, sometimes to an astonishing degree.

Lifestyle is a cultural matter, not a medical one.

Also, in your partial rebuttal I am sure you were thinking of Canada - but Canada has but a small fraction of the overall population, and far far fewer advanced treatment centers.

Regarding litigation/regulation, the different structure of their system and different litigation environment give that aspect a different impact. A lack of lawsuits in the case of publicly owned industry often actually equates to a lack of recourse. I am not sure to what degree that is the case here, I have heard stories but they are just stories. Getting in depth English language info about the inner working of other countries can be difficult at times.

So, I actually do not have to try again - re-examine the links you attempted to make. Upon closer inspection, you will find your counters faulty.

Though I will say one thing in favor of the Swedes that works in their favor and they did right - by and large, their health system is actually administered at the local level, not the federal level. The amount of local control is unprecedented, and goes far above and beyond anything we have seen in the USA. This would certainly help improve the efficiency of the system, as local control improves accountability and responsiveness over Federal management.



For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#100257 - 04/27/12 08:07 PM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Kaotic]  
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Originally Posted By: Sinij
If our ancestors didn't like to live under British colonial yoke they should have just left, right?
Um, they did...


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#100258 - 04/27/12 08:11 PM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Kaotic]  
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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Originally Posted By: Sinij
If our ancestors didn't like to live under British colonial yoke they should have just left, right?
Um, they did...


Glad I was not the only one that noticed it.

But then again I am looking at it as the colonies left and not one person at a time.

#100259 - 04/27/12 08:18 PM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Kaotic]  
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The debt has outgrown the GDP through the first quarter. So should we keep spending more, so we can ensure we go in the direction of third world status?

The buffet tax would raise $50 billion, how in the hell is that going to help with Trillions of debt? It won't, even Obama's budget spent more, again how in the fuck can you reduce the debt while your still spending DESPITE bringing on more revenue?


Quote:
If our ancestors didn't like to live under British colonial yoke they should have just left, right?

They did... what rock have you been living under? I think this stupid question says all we need to know about you!

Last edited by Wolfgang; 04/27/12 08:19 PM.
#100297 - 04/29/12 06:27 PM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Kaotic]  
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Oh boy, where to start. How about some numbers:

http://reason.com/archives/2008/06/17/accidents-murders-preemies-fat

So the numbers in there match up, but they also have a few other nuggets. We are too fat, have too many teen pregnancies, too many murders, etc. I'm not sure that a single payer system would solve any of that OR make it cheaper. For counter example please examine other government monopolies like mail, electricity, etc

To be honest, this is all beside the point. The point is that I should be responsible for my own decisions. Health care is not a human right just because some UN commission decided it was! How is it moral to take from me the fruit of my own labor and give it to someone else? That is NOT the social contract, my friend.

In an earlier post, a paranoid fantasy was acted out where I was hypothetically stripped of coverage, lost my job, etc. In this case, I would still get treatment under the current system, I would just be in debt for life with no option to repay- just like Uncle Sam!

Allow me to outline another paranoid fantasy that I fear much more AND feel is more deadly: Sinij's Fantasy Island, one payersystem is enacted. Everyone lines up TSA style at the local clinic for their MRI, chest x-ray, whatever. Upon finding a lump in my neck (or my kid's), I am kicked upstairs for Secondary Evaluation. The lump is diagnosed 1.5 years later as lymphoma, the medical review panel calculates the odds of survival, cost of treatment, and future earnings and decides that it is not worth treating. We are given pain and mood drugs, and referred to a hospice situation. In this scenario, there is one medical provider, and everyone has access to my files. Once a decision has been made, it can be appealed (another few years) but not treated further. I have no options!

I prefer to take my chances with treatment and debt that to have some death panel judging me and mine.

My question is, if Sarah Palin is so dumb, why can she see this and all you hippies can't?


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#100299 - 04/29/12 07:30 PM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Wolfgang]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfgang
Quote:
If our ancestors didn't like to live under British colonial yoke they should have just left, right?

They did... what rock have you been living under? I think this stupid question says all we need to know about you!


No, they didn't leave, they had a nice civil war over cup of tea and agreed to have quite a bit of changes done to how things are run.

So in conclusion - fuck you, I am staying, how about you get your troglodyte ass the fuck out to your libertarian "small government" paradise in Somalia instead?


#100302 - 04/29/12 10:45 PM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Kaotic]  
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First off understanding the words posted: Civil War: a war between political factions or regions within the same country.

( US ) history the war fought from 1861 to 1865 between the North and the South, sparked off by Lincoln's election as president but with deep-rooted political and economic causes, exacerbated by the slavery issue. The advantages of the North in terms of population, finance, and communications brought about the South's eventual surrender at Appomattox

Now what occured against the Brits was a Revolutionary War: The war for American independence from Britain. The fighting began with the Battle of Lexington and Concord in 1775, and lasted through the Battle of Yorktown in 1781. General George Washington commanded the American forces, assisted by Ethan Allen, Benedict Arnold, Horatio Gates, John Paul Jones, and others. The leaders of the British included Charles Cornwallis, John Burgoyne, Thomas Gage, and William Howe, among others. The American cause was greatly aided by French ships and troops and by the presence of the French nobleman and soldier the Marquis de Lafayette. The Treaty of Paris in 1783 officially ended the war. ( See Battle of Bunker Hill and Battle of Saratoga.)


So now that we have cleared the difference from a civil war to a revolutionary war, lets look at anthoer example of your use of Somalia.
Somalia has no offical form of government, so there for it can not be used as an example.

So in conclusion you know have been showen the differences.

#100305 - 04/30/12 02:50 AM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Originally Posted By: Wolfgang
Quote:
If our ancestors didn't like to live under British colonial yoke they should have just left, right?

They did... what rock have you been living under? I think this stupid question says all we need to know about you!


No, they didn't leave, they had a nice civil war over cup of tea and agreed to have quite a bit of changes done to how things are run.

So in conclusion - fuck you, I am staying, how about you get your troglodyte ass the fuck out to your libertarian "small government" paradise in Somalia instead?


Your Ignorance is simply amazing.

#100306 - 04/30/12 03:09 AM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: RedKGB]  
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Originally Posted By: RedKGB
So now that we have cleared the difference from a civil war to a revolutionary war


You are mistaken. Revolutionary war is by definition is a type of civil war. In my earlier post I did not specify, The Civil War, term usually reserved for North vs. South civil war, so you are not even technically correct in your point.

If you don't believe me, ask internet - Civil war, List of Civil Wars

Quote:
A civil war is a war between organized groups within the same nation state or republic,[1] or, less commonly, between two countries created from a formerly-united nation state.[2] The aim of one side may be to take control of the country or a region, to achieve independence for a region, or to change government policies.


Quote:
Somalia has no offical form of government, so there for it can not be used as an example.


How so? They 100% succeeded at deregulating everything and reducing government as much as possible. Plus since they have no government they also have no taxes. That is Libertarian Utopia through-and-through.


#100308 - 04/30/12 03:17 AM Re: Healthcare - For Sinij [Re: Wolfgang]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfgang
Your Ignorance is simply amazing.


Did you completely abandoned any further attempts of intellectual pursuits and relegated yourself to comforts of intentional denial?


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